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Lotsa lore questions - Zope - 11-17-2013

Now that I've been playing the game for a good month and seen more of the lore and how classes work, I've decided to scrap a large majority of Ava's background and such. In the process of rebuilding and coming up with new ideas, I've found myself unable to answer a few questions on my own. Not all of these are related, mind you.

First, how many of you guys play WoL? Also, how would you guys (the community, not just WoL players) feel about someone roleplaying a WoL even if they didn't technically play 1.0?  

Second, where the heck is Cartneau? Also, which of the 3 main cities is farthest away from it/closest to it/took the most or least damage? 

Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo. 

Fourth, how expensive do you think a chocobo would be? Would it be akin to buying a car in our world? Or would it be plausible that a breeder may give a deal to someone based on a variety of reasons? And are there any naming conventions for chocobos?

Fifth, because we can (in-game) be any class or wear any armor, how do you guys feel about a character's fighting style being a mix of classes? For instance, a paladin who also has skills with a lance, or a puglist/monk who can use basic healing magics, ect, ect?

That..seems to be all I have (for now). Sorry it's a fair bit and may be asked in a confusing manner. If needed I can re clarify. Thanks for any help!

RE: Lotsa lore questions - John Spiegel - 11-17-2013

First, how many of you guys play WoL? Also, how would you guys (the community, not just WoL players) feel about someone roleplaying a WoL even if they didn't technically play 1.0?

I did not play 1.0 but two of my characters were at the battle. A Warrior of Light isn't anything SUPER rare as that any of the folks (mainly adventurers since the GCs pulled their people out but could be just folks that are like cooks or peasants that went to fight) have the tattoo.

Second, where the heck is Cartneau? Also, which of the 3 main cities is farthest away from it/closest to it/took the most or least damage?

In Mor Dhona, which is directly north of Thanalan; west of the Shroud, south of Coerthas.

Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo.

That's a little subjective. Eorzea is supposed to be massive and each nation, especially Ul'Dah, has massive populations... but due to hardware/software limitations and that sort, each nation looks lively, but much is lost in translation. I'm sure someone else can give a better explaination. I just play it by ear for the moment.

Fourth, how expensive do you think a chocobo would be? Would it be akin to buying a car in our world? Or would it be plausible that a breeder may give a deal to someone based on a variety of reasons? And are there any naming conventions for chocobos?

If you are part of a GC you could argue your bird is a Company Chocobo... otherwise I'm not sure.

Fifth, because we can (in-game) be any class or wear any armor, how do you guys feel about a character's fighting style being a mix of classes? For instance, a paladin who also has skills with a lance, or a puglist/monk who can use basic healing magics, ect, ect?

I'm a firm believer that just because you're in a mage robe doesn't mean your fists don't work (granted your IC character is capable). Example, if JJ wears a robe he's surely as hell not about to cast Blizzardagaza XXII32, but merely just wear a robe!

RE: Lotsa lore questions - LandStander - 11-17-2013

First, how many of you guys play WoL? Also, how would you guys (the community, not just WoL players) feel about someone roleplaying a WoL even if they didn't technically play 1.0? 

I do not play one even though I have a 1.0 character, but it really doesn't make a difference if you do or not. All the Warriors of Light are, are people who time skipped during the Battle of Cartneau and due to some kind of weird magic, these people have been completely forgotten due to fuzzy memory syndrome. The friends they once had can barely remember them. They know that they knew someone, but the face/name/if they were lovers/etc. is really fuzzy to them. So even if you were to go around and claim you were such a person everyone would just look at you weird.

Second, where the heck is Cartneau? Also, which of the 3 main cities is farthest away from it/closest to it/took the most or least damage? 

I think all the cities took damage, but seeing as its inside Mor Dhona and the closest city is Gridania then that probably takes first place. In 1.0 there was no New and Old Gridania as it was just Gridania. New Gridania was recently built after all the destruction. Limsa comes in second as it also got hit pretty hard, but not as bad as Gridania. Ul'dah..I have not read any lore about the damages that were caused there and city looks exactly like it did in 1.0 so it probably didn't suffer as much damage. 

Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo. 

This is really up to you. I played a trip from Gridania to Coerthas to last a week in game, and made it so the plot would stretch three real days, but as I said before, this is just up to the people participating I would say. 

Fourth, how expensive do you think a chocobo would be? Would it be akin to buying a car in our world? Or would it be plausible that a breeder may give a deal to someone based on a variety of reasons? And are there any naming conventions for chocobos?

I like to think that they are pretty damn expensive. Not only do you have to afford it, but also the housing, food, water, vet bills...Its like owning a horse in real life lol. I like JJ's idea of just saying its a company chocobo. My character is constantly broke so she never has one IC, but she did come across some money from winning a tournament and "gifts" so she was able to rent one a few times. 


Fifth, because we can (in-game) be any class or wear any armor, how do you guys feel about a character's fighting style being a mix of classes? For instance, a paladin who also has skills with a lance, or a puglist/monk who can use basic healing magics, ect, ect?


I don't mind as long as people keep it modest. I don't like it when I run into people who can cast high level black magic, while summoning Ifrit, and fighting off a attackers with their paladin skills. I have always kept the train of thought that the more skills you tack on, your versatility increases, but your overall skill gets worse. Someone who has trained most of their life with just hand to hand combat and sword play will be a lot better at the two than someone who has taken on five different forms of combat. I also like to think that age and skill level go hand and hand. The twenty year old who has been training for three years should really have a hard time fighting against the forty year old man who has been at it for twenty plus years. 

I would also like to add that I am against the idea of people who play highly skilled warriors one day and then summon down a meteor as a black mage the next. I would keep it at just one advanced class, possibly two if they were an older character who had a lot of experience in combat. 

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Ildur - 11-17-2013

Well, most of these questions have good answers, so I'll add my cents to only a few of them.

Quote: Which of the 3 main cities is farthest away from it/closest to it/took the most or least damage?

Ul'dah's damage seems to have been limited to the Milvaneth Sacrarium, which I -think- is a Thaumaturge building. It's been on repairs for five years, though, so some people think there's actually something else going on in there.
The large ammount of refugees going to Ul'dah after the Calamity also suggests it was the least damaged of the cities, though there's also its popularity as the richest nation, and the fact that Limsa requires sea travel to get there (which is not something refugees can afford).

Quote:Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo.

There are a bunch of soldier NPCs in Fallgourd Float who emote taking two hours to get there from Gridania, trotting. So that would imply Fallgourd is 30kms apart from Gridania, if we consider a trotting speed of 15km/h and no slow downs at all (which isn't realistic, but it's Fantasy!). However, I think it was stated by the devs that the game world is not made in scale, so even with this measure we can't really know how far things are from each other.
My rule of thumb is that it takes one day to cross one full area. So Vesper Bay would be one day away from Ul'dah, and Gridania would be five days apart.
A better way to measure it, though, might be to actually make the trips in-game by walking and seeing how many in-game cycles pass until you reach your destination. Then make a couple of adjustements (add time spent eating and sleeping).

Quote:Fourth, how expensive do you think a chocobo would be? Would it be akin to buying a car in our world? Or would it be plausible that a breeder may give a deal to someone based on a variety of reasons? And are there any naming conventions for chocobos?

I'd treat it as having a horse in the modern world unless you are part of a Grand Company (or an organization that would have easy access to them). There are no naming conventions for chocobos.

Quote:Fifth, because we can (in-game) be any class or wear any armor, how do you guys feel about a character's fighting style being a mix of classes? For instance, a paladin who also has skills with a lance, or a puglist/monk who can use basic healing magics, ect, ect?

If the game allows it mechanically, then it should be all right to use during roleplay. You can take certain liberties as long as they make sense, but you have to stay away from becoming a "Master of All". For example, while it might seem like a mage should be able to use Thaumaturgy, Arcanima and Conjury at the same time with the same efficiency, he actually shouldn't in most cases. Conjury requires a staff or scepter made of untreated wood, and Arcanima is heavy on mathematics and numbers (hence why people use books). You can work around this in some ways. Maybe your character has inscribed some Arcanima formulas and glyphs (or whatever they are called) on his blade, so he can use it with some efficacy, but not as much as if he had an actual magical book with him.
Balance and logic are the things you need to use when mixing classes or making things up, really.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Zope - 11-17-2013

Thanks for all the answers, guys!

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Rosekitten - 11-17-2013

I can't give a lot of input on the WoL cause I don't personally play that myself. If it came down to where my character for whatever reason has to do the primals IC'ly then I would have to figure something out but that doesn't mean that everyone who fights primals has to be a WoL .. its just the safer route to have the echo and all ;D

Most of these were already answered so I'll go to something I can actually have input on like the chocobo. IC I had my character end up with one he had been using for years from work. When he was laid off due to new management the bird stopped listening to orders so he ended up being called back there to get the bird. Needless to say he has a bit of debt to pay back due to them losing a perfectly good work animal but still D; 

As far as the armor goes.. my main rp outfit actually its chainmail and some plate to be honest and my ic main class is MRD. The character has lancer knowledge due to where he grew up and a few skills in GLD from a few years in the Ul'dah area working as a carpenter. I don't really see why gear should be limited if you have a ic reason for it.. there could be some battle mage out there that spent a lot of time in magic training and being able to wear heavy armor for all I know.. *shrugs* I tend to be in casual wear more then armor anyway... 

On the same note IC I have it stated he can do some conj spells but thats pretty limited to rank 1 cure and then its hardly anything to brag about. But that bit of healing skill is from his past as well and not from formal training. More common then not he'd probably stick to conventional healing methods over trying to cast a spell Tongue

~theres my thoughts/input on things I'll be shutting up nows~

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Lament - 11-18-2013

Quote:Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo.

For further insight, a Lalafell NPC in Horizon (next to a sleeping Chocobo) says the trip from Gridania, on chocobo, nonstop, took a day.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Naunet - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 12:14 AM)Lament Wrote:
Quote:Third, how long does the community as a whole feel it would take to get from a major hub city to another without special means of transportation. Lets say the only method they had was one chocobo.

For further insight, a Lalafell NPC in Horizon (next to a sleeping Chocobo) says the trip from Gridania, on chocobo, nonstop, took a day.

That seems really, incredibly, unbelievably short. Like, impossibly so. Horizon is way the fuck away from Gridania. >_> I'm more inclined to think Squeenix is just really freaking bad at distance.

The Hipparion tribe has been RPing that it takes 2ish days to get from the Forgotten Springs to Ul'dah, accounting for the unknown length of the Red Labyrinth and crossing the northern half of Southern Thanalan. More if more frequent stops are taken, of course.

In RP back in the betas, I had it take a week to get from Gridania back to Limsa Lominsa.

Keep in mind that not only are the zones significantly larger than they appear in game (if they weren't, it would make no sense), but also that most of the zones don't even line up border-for-border. Often when you pass into another zone, you're quite obviously skipping a pretty large chunk of area.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - LiadansWhisper - 11-18-2013

(11-17-2013, 09:24 PM)LandStander Wrote: Fourth, how expensive do you think a chocobo would be? Would it be akin to buying a car in our world? Or would it be plausible that a breeder may give a deal to someone based on a variety of reasons? And are there any naming conventions for chocobos?

I like to think that they are pretty damn expensive. Not only do you have to afford it, but also the housing, food, water, vet bills...Its like owning a horse in real life lol. I like JJ's idea of just saying its a company chocobo. My character is constantly broke so she never has one IC, but she did come across some money from winning a tournament and "gifts" so she was able to rent one a few times. 

So I've been thinking about the question, and the various responses I've seen here, and I...have to disagree.

Instead of thinking about this from a modern standpoint, think about this in terms of history.  Let's replace Chocobos with Horses - which served the same function in our world for thousands of years.  Horses, ponies, and mules were extremely common in pre-industrial society.  They served the same function as modern automobiles - they transported people over long distances, hauled goods for sale from one location to another, plowed fields, and served as the ultimate mobile weapon - first drawing chariots, and later being employed as mounts for fast-moving calvary units.

Did everyone have a horse?  No.  Most common people probably wouldn't have a horse.  In more urbanized areas, it would be possible to hire a cab (yes, drawn by a horse) much like you might hire a taxi in a large city, for those who did not own a horse themselves.  However, in the wilds?  In the wilderness and untamed land?  Not having horse was often a one-way ticket to an early grave. Horses allowed you to carry more supplies than you otherwise could (and, seriously, food is really heavy, and water is worse, and carrying enough food and water to last for a week is going to be really tough, not to mention bedrolls, tents, etc.), hastened your trip to an extent, and gave you the ability to outrun predators (as well as early warning that predators were out there). They were hardy, dependable, and very strong.  There's a reason why horse stealing was a capital offense in many western states/territories right up through the 20th century (I think some of those laws are actually still on the books, but don't quote me on it).

Horses were not expensive.  They weren't expensive to buy (though, of course, some horses were very expensive, this depended on your location, the breed, and use of the horse), and they weren't expensive to maintain.  A huge cost for modern horse owners is stabling - something that was much cheaper just a century ago.  And that's assuming you even used a stable.  If someone was traveling from place to place, and they booked a room in an inn, the stable fees were usually (from everything I've read ,anyway) included in the cost of the inn room.  In the wilds?  You'd hobble the horses or tie them and leave them outside over night.  They were, after all, just horses.  There was none of this paying $400+ per month for a single stall in a stable.

Someone mentioned vet bills, but if we're going with the "medieval-esque" time period of the game, well, there were no vets.  The closest thing you'd have to a vet was a Farrier, and they mostly took care of horse hooves.  There were no regulations, and no schools to teach Farriers how to do their jobs.  The first veterinary schools didn't appear until the mid 1700s, and it wasn't until the turn of the century that the profession really took off.  And this is even assuming that an Adventurer (or most people) would pay the extra gil to get their mount looked at.  Most Horses never saw a Farrier for more than shoes, and if they were ill, most of the time they were put down.  While there are a lot of really nice NPCs running around professing their love of Chocobos, I'm sure there are just as many people who view a Chocobo as a means to an end, and don't really care if the creature is treated well or made comfortable.

There are two Chocobo stables that we see in game, both in Gridania.  And yes, the NPCs there talk about how they "won't sell to just anyone."  Because, after all, Chocobos are special.  Well, they may be special, but the main storyline leads you through a quest at Bentbranch where it's mentioned in passing that the guy after the all-important egg is from Ishgard, and makes a passing reference at the quality of the Chocobos in Ishgard, and how much finer they are than anywhere else.  So there's got to be at least one breeding stable in Ishgard (or was before the Calamity, anyway). And if there's one stable outside of Gridania, there are probably more. I find it hard to believe that the money-grubbing merchants of Ul'dah, for instance, would want to pay to import their draft animals and mounts. I find it even less believable that the residents of La Noscea would be importing all of their Chocobos from Gridania (and neither of those operations are large enough to supply the presumable demand for the entire continent). So Chocobo breeding is probably pretty widespread, just like horse breeding. Meaning that some people are going to be very careful about who they sell to, and others won't give a shit - they just want the money in their pockets.  

Plus, Chocobos are everywhere.  They're in every settlement, big or small, sometimes even when there's no Chocobokeep.  We see them carrying people from place to place (taxi!), hauling goods for sale, serving in the various Grand Companies as calvary mounts, and generally filling every role that Horses filled in human society here on earth.  There are various sizes of Chocobos (big, small, and in-between!), and even the suggestion that certain Chocobos are suited for specific types of work (i.e. a riding Chocobo might not be suited to draftwork, and a draft chocobo might not be suited to serve as a war mount, etc).

My personal feeling on the subject is that Adventurers, as adventurers, tend to be moving around much more than your average commoner.  Therefore, they'd need a solid means of transportation.  And while not every commoner is going to have the coin to purchase a chocobo (or, even if they do, might not have a place to keep it in a large city like Ul'dah, or just not need one), an Adventurer is likely to have the coin and, more importantly, spend it on a Chocobo because of how useful they are to someone who needs to be constantly moving from place to place.

Finally, I don't think you can judge the ability for people to own a Chocobo of their own on modern limitations to horse ownership.  Many of those limitations wouldn't even exist in a more agrarian society.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - C'kayah Polaali - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 07:44 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [A vast wall of text on the logistics of chocobo ownership]

This, really.

I personally think adventurers getting their chocobos from Grand Companies speaks more to the sort of training that GC chocobos probably got, compared to the average run-of-the-mill riding chocobos. We do, after all, routinely ride our chocobos through the midst of extremely hostile groups of creatures who are often extremely motivated to stop us. Our GC chocobos don't blink an eye, they just trust us and power on through. They're likely to be the equivalent of the highly trained cavalry horses of a hundred years ago (or more). Chocobos in general? Pretty cheap, as Liadan says. Our chocobos, on the other hand, are pretty damn special.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Lament - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 02:29 AM)Naunet Wrote: Keep in mind that not only are the zones significantly larger than they appear in game (if they weren't, it would make no sense), but also that most of the zones don't even line up border-for-border. Often when you pass into another zone, you're quite obviously skipping a pretty large chunk of area.

Through mining and botany it's actually possible to estimate the size of each area and they are tiny. The gate to Ul'dah is only 360 yalms/yards (a fifth of a mile) from the ore in Copperbell Mines, which means the entire Western Thanalan area would span maybe just above a mile diagonally. D|

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Naunet - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 07:08 PM)Lament Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 02:29 AM)Naunet Wrote: Keep in mind that not only are the zones significantly larger than they appear in game (if they weren't, it would make no sense), but also that most of the zones don't even line up border-for-border. Often when you pass into another zone, you're quite obviously skipping a pretty large chunk of area.

Through mining and botany it's actually possible to estimate the size of each area and they are tiny. The gate to Ul'dah is only 360 yalms/yards (a fifth of a mile) from the ore in Copperbell Mines, which means the entire Western Thanalan area would span maybe just above a mile diagonally. D|

I just refuse to believe the world is really that small. It makes no sense. Squeenix sucks at distance and that's it.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Lament - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 07:58 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 07:08 PM)Lament Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 02:29 AM)Naunet Wrote: Keep in mind that not only are the zones significantly larger than they appear in game (if they weren't, it would make no sense), but also that most of the zones don't even line up border-for-border. Often when you pass into another zone, you're quite obviously skipping a pretty large chunk of area.

Through mining and botany it's actually possible to estimate the size of each area and they are tiny. The gate to Ul'dah is only 360 yalms/yards (a fifth of a mile) from the ore in Copperbell Mines, which means the entire Western Thanalan area would span maybe just above a mile diagonally. D|

I just refuse to believe the world is really that small. It makes no sense. Squeenix sucks at distance and that's it.

It's not that they suck at distance so much as the fact they just can't make a huge world - it's not feasible. The size of the areas makes sense considering the amount of time it takes to walk/run from one end to the other, but in terms of anything else, it doesn't. Even if you consider that it's just a tiny portion of Western Thanalan - the distance between Ul'dah and the Castrum in WT being just above a single mile would be ridiculous considering the animosity/tension between the two. The distances aren't supposed to make any sense, really, they're there because of technical restrictions.

For better or worse, though, it does mean we have plenty of freedom to decide for ourselves on things like actual distances and travel times, since what the game offers would defy all logic (as would most rpgs where you can travel by air around the world and if you fly off a corner of the map, you end up on the opposite corner - a planet that small wouldn't even have enough of a gravitational pull).

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Illira - 11-18-2013

(11-18-2013, 07:58 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 07:08 PM)Lament Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 02:29 AM)Naunet Wrote: Keep in mind that not only are the zones significantly larger than they appear in game (if they weren't, it would make no sense), but also that most of the zones don't even line up border-for-border. Often when you pass into another zone, you're quite obviously skipping a pretty large chunk of area.

Through mining and botany it's actually possible to estimate the size of each area and they are tiny. The gate to Ul'dah is only 360 yalms/yards (a fifth of a mile) from the ore in Copperbell Mines, which means the entire Western Thanalan area would span maybe just above a mile diagavaonally. D|

I just refuse to believe the world is really that small. It makes no sense. Squeenix sucks at distance and that's it.


When you take into consideration the logistics behind what is needed to support significant populations, as is presented by multiple large cities, town, outposts, etc. it makes even less sense. Beyond just needing space for all those people, you need land to grow crops, raise livestock (and let me just say that the raising of livestock takes a considerable amount of land... more than western thanalan apparently >.>), mining, etc. Not to mention that it would be virtually impossible to have the sheer range of environments that the game displays. The sort of significant population indicated by the game's lore, environments, and the daily life that the game presents would pretty much dwarf the world if it is as small as you imply Lament. It would simply be unsustainable to more than few mid-sized townships at best, based off of sqaure footage alone. Anymore and the world would be facing a serious hunger problem due to overpopulation.

RE: Lotsa lore questions - Naunet - 11-18-2013

^Illira's post is basically why I'm just gonna ignore any references of "It took me two hours to run from Gridania to Drybone!" or whatever and just go with distances that seem reasonable (and give enough wiggle room to be forgiving across multiple micro-canons), because from a logical perspective, it's all complete bullcrap. xD