+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Lore Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: [Discussion] Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat (/showthread.php?tid=18640)
Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Seriphyn - 02-23-2017
I wanted to break this off from the other thread regarding Stormblood RP, which was talking about the in-game allusions to the gang rape of females by Garlean soldiers and...well, just mostly rape really. Look, I am a big fan of the focus on 'relative realism' as far as FFXIV's world goes, but why must it always be the topic of rape used to heavyhand grittiness and realism? For example, I adore the Witcher 3, but in my time playing it to completion, I don't recall it resorting to such an easy topic to provoke an emotional reaction. Yes, fine, rape is a real thing and should not be glossed over when it comes to production fiction. But they employ it so easily in FFXIV that it makes it lazy.
This laziness is exacerbated by these two premises that will form the core of my argument...
1) Women are institutionally equal to men in the world of FFXIV.
...and (although I'm not an expert on the subject)...
2) Rape is facilitated by men possessing near-exclusive control of the means to apply physical violence.
I may be very off with point 2 but please bear with me as I press on. Regarding 1), all you have to do is look at the innumerable military NPCs across the game world. Square Enix are very deliberate and particular with how they craft the NPCs to populate the world according to their lore. In the lorebook, Ul'dah is primarily composed of Midlanders, Highlanders, Hellsguard, and Dunesfolk. Consequentially, the vast majority of Ul'dahn NPCs will be of these races. This attention to detail can be broken down further; Grand Company NPCs are clothed according to their rank, from soldier through to officer. A Grand Company NPC who is dressed in officer clothing can be found briefing NPCs who are dressed in a lower-ranking uniform. This deliberate sense of world building is there clear as day.
I point out this attention-to-detail to preemptively counter any dissent over the fact that these military NPCs are just as likely to be female as they are male. I am conscious of any counter-arguments being made that I am overthinking the presence of female military NPCs, which I am not. SE were deliberate with their racial choices of NPCs accurately representing the region they inhabit, so if they wanted to imply that the military profession is male-dominated, they would have made all soldier NPCs male.
Moving on, then, 3) FFXIV exists in a historical and social state that is not completely analogous to our own. The real-life military, and especially combat units, is not 50:50 male and female. In Eorzea, female swordsmen hold command over male swordsmen. Bringing up one or two examples of real-life historical exceptions is not equivalent, because female leadership and female military leadership is widespread and completely normal to Eorzeans.
So, why, then are women and girls in FFXIV defaulting to the role of being rape victims? I drop this quote...
Quote:When Ala Mhigo fell, they put my family in a camp. Bein’ a lad, I was made to do hard labor, while my mother an’ sister were made to do far worse
Sorry, where is the female centurion who is sympathetic to the female condition (if it even exists as we know it in FFXIV) not stepping in to prevent this? Where is the female centurion ordering her troops to rape men? This is not just the Garleans. The Sea Wolf raiders would apparently commit to the same atrocities. Yet, the current 'leader' (if you will) of the Sea Wolves is a female. It may be a stretch to argue, but how do women achieve unquestionable equality in a culture where rape is supposedly a norm? The armies of FFXIV are both men and women, so how does half an army just ignore such crimes?
Essentially, this brings us on to...
4) The only time gender relations in FFXIV are addressed is with crude allusions to rape.
As far as I can see, there are no sexist jabs beyond stuff like cat-calling. There is no 'That Merlwyb wench shouldn't be in charge because she ain't no man'. There is nothing of the sort made in FFXIV dialogue, yet suddenly it comes out of nowhere that male prisoners are made to do hard labour and women become sex slaves. What is the social context that establishes this? This brings me on to my last two points...
5) Regardless of fan explanations, the unquestionable and unflinching equality of women in the world of FFXIV (outside of rape) makes the universe so alien to our own that it will be near-impossible to fully comprehend its social dynamics.
Leading to my conclusion of...
6) Square Enix has used rape-as-we-know-it as a cheap, easy, and lazy method to tactlessly provoke emotional responses without giving the topic a more careful (and perhaps more respectful) deliberation by considering it within the greater context of everything else they have constructed around men and women in FFXIV.
tl;dr
get rape out of my game that has cutesy midgets and flying white teddy bears in it.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Virella - 02-23-2017
I'd suggest you make this thread on the official forums if you feel this topic needs to be addressed. You're not going to achieve much here I think.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Seriphyn - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:34 PM)Virella Wrote: I'd suggest you make this thread on the official forums if you feel this topic needs to be addressed. You're not going to achieve much here I think.
It's more academic wankery than anything, but hey, if I ever get to go to a Fanfest, I could mention it to Koji Fox.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - L'ohba Tia - 02-23-2017
Rape has less to do with gender inequality and more to do with soldiers and pirates being horny. It's also an effective tool for psychological warfare. It doesn't matter if women are equally represented in a military. It's not going to stop rape.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Warren Castille - 02-23-2017
Yeah, it's totally unrealistic. I mean, we all know once we started letting women into the US military all sexism stopped, as did sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination. Ditto for police, fire stations, education, politics, sports, and every other career that features both men and women in leadership positions.
It's so weird to see that sexism isn't solved in a fantasy world, when we managed it in reality!
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Parvacake - 02-23-2017
On the contrary, I don't think they fall flat at all.
Nor are women fully portrayed as equal in the game.
Look at Sastasha and the serving wenches when you come into the room and what they say to you when you enter. Look at the elezen female who betrayed the Flames in the MSQ and what she says after she's captured. I don't have access to the quotes directly, but they are subtly added in and sometimes you miss them if you aren't looking.
Quote:Sorry, where is the female centurion who is sympathetic to the female condition (if it even exists as we know it in FFXIV) not stepping in to prevent this? Where is the female centurion ordering her troops to rape men?
I would take a good close look at this statement again. Chances are if they stepped in? It would happen to them as well. Asking this question comes across as ignorance and I feel should have been given more thought before asking it.
I understand you're trying to be respectful in approaching this topic, but this is a very slippery slope and one you might not be prepared to handle with as much tact and respect as you might think you have.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Domri Blackblade - 02-23-2017
Rachel puts on her Ru Paul wig and raises binoculars and says, "I cannot wait to see how this turns out." Thereby, she turned it into a discussion post and not a meme because apparently gender equality means the elimination of sexism.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Seriphyn - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Yeah, it's totally unrealistic. I mean, we all know once we started letting women into the US military all sexism stopped, as did sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination. Ditto for police, fire stations, education, politics, sports, and every other career that features both men and women in leadership positions.
It's so weird to see that sexism isn't solved in a fantasy world, when we managed it in reality!
That is not my argument. My argument is that we cannot possibly know how gender dynamics exist in Eorzea because their level of egalitarianism between the sexes is so far out and alien to our own world. Therefore, making assumptions that rape functions the same way as we know it is fallacious.
Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - L'ohba Tia - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.
What about the entirety of Miqo'te lore? Ishgardian culture? The Lalafell in the WVR questline who just about backhands the girl being forced to marry him? Sexism isn't non-existent in Eorzea just because the military judges purely on merit.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Chlodomer - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.Sanguine Sirens are very sexist last I noticed.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - L'ohba Tia - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:51 PM)Chlodomer Wrote:(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.Sanguine Sirens are very sexist last I noticed.
Also an example of some female sexual predators, given that they're force-feeding that guy oysters.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Tyndles - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:(02-23-2017, 07:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Yeah, it's totally unrealistic. I mean, we all know once we started letting women into the US military all sexism stopped, as did sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination. Ditto for police, fire stations, education, politics, sports, and every other career that features both men and women in leadership positions.
It's so weird to see that sexism isn't solved in a fantasy world, when we managed it in reality!
That is not my argument. My argument is that we cannot possibly know how gender dynamics exist in Eorzea because their level of egalitarianism between the sexes is so far out and alien to our own world. Therefore, making assumptions that rape functions the same way as we know it is fallacious.
Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.
I...I mean...what.....HUH?
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Seriphyn - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:51 PM)L Wrote:(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.
What about the entirety of Miqo'te lore? Ishgardian culture? The Lalafell in the WVR questline who just about backhands the girl being forced to marry him? Sexism isn't non-existent in Eorzea just because the military judges purely on merit.
Miqo'te lore I've always trumpeted on OOC about its dodgy social structure (to which people have defended it OOC by saying it's not really sexist)...but it's not even brought up as an issue in the game world. At least, as far as I've consumed of the game, no character has gone 'This patriarchal tribal nonsense is nonsense'. SE are okay with dropping in rape but not making Seeker of the Sun culture a contentious political issue in-universe.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - L'ohba Tia - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 07:55 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:(02-23-2017, 07:51 PM)L Wrote:(02-23-2017, 07:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Your post also doesn't acknowledge that day-to-day sexism is apparently non-existent in Eorzea, whereas in our own, it is still very much a thing.
What about the entirety of Miqo'te lore? Ishgardian culture? The Lalafell in the WVR questline who just about backhands the girl being forced to marry him? Sexism isn't non-existent in Eorzea just because the military judges purely on merit.
Miqo'te lore I've always trumpeted on OOC about its dodgy social structure (to which people have defended it OOC by saying it's not really sexist)...but it's not even brought up as an issue in the game world. At least, as far as I've consumed of the game, no character has gone 'This patriarchal tribal nonsense is nonsense'. SE are okay with dropping in rape but not making Seeker of the Sun a contentious political issue in-universe.
Because it's their culture, and the vast majority seem to be totally fine with it. That doesn't mean it isn't sexist, though. In Seeker of the Sun tribes, women are still respected and fill the same duties as men, but it's still a patriarchal society at its heart. Keepers of the Moon don't even give their men real names, and kick them out of the house as soon as they're old enough to not die. That's sexist no matter how you look at it. But again, they seem to be fine with it since Miqo'te men seem to have a kind of inherent wanderlust.
We've also seen a Miqo'te who wasn't happy with it. The Coeurlking. And it's totally possible we'll meet more someday.
RE: Why FFXIV's rape themes fall monumentally flat - Teadrinker - 02-23-2017
/Modhat
Try and keep this one as close to the intended subject of discussion as possible and keep replies prudent and relevant to the OP. It's a touchy subject so we're keeping an eye on it.
[Discussion] Tag is on for this post. Explanation is here: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=15773
/Modhat