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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Couerlclaws (/showthread.php?tid=16756)
RE: Couerlclaws - LiadansWhisper - 07-30-2016
(07-30-2016, 05:13 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Yeah. I know. Like I said before:
Quote:It doesn’t seem possible to… explain things to Elementals, I guess? They perceive your existence by looking directly at your aether and what it’s doing, how it’s resonating, what aether you’re similar or different from.To elaborate: We know this manner of perceiving things causes severe problems in mortals who employ it. And looking directly at your aether now isn't a good way of understanding what you want for the future, what you're going to do next week, or your more complex thought patterns and opinions - it's just the only way the Elementals have. So of course it's necessary to employ translation skills in order to foster any kind of understanding.
I feel like you're assuming that Elementals suffer from the same issues that mortals do. They're made of aether, and we don't have any indication that even if they are looking at our aether that they can perceive anything of our intentions. Being able to see aether doesn't translate into telepathy, after all. There's also nothing to indicate that perceiving people via aether would harm an elemental. Perhaps they're designed to perceive other life forms that way? Perhaps that's just how they see, so they're adapted to favor it?
Quote:Quote:They’re probably not so keen on “if I do X, it’ll hurt the forest temporarily, but in the long run it’ll bring about Y†either. All they’ll perceive is your lack of inhibition towards hurting the forest.To elaborate: The way Elementals would perceive "intent" isn't the same way we, as humans who think of our more complex thoughts as being part of ourselves, perceive it. They perceive what you are doing, right now, and the intentions behind it. If your intention is "damage the forest", they don't see as far as "...so I can save it from greater damage later" before getting mad. They're aether-readers, not mind-readers. (I know that's a difficult differentiation to make lol.)
The thing is...I don't see anything indicating the Elementals can perceive intent. They kept the Gelmorrans in the ground for hundreds of years because the Elementals couldn't perceive their intent...or anything else about them other than the fact that they were mortals in an area where, last time mortals were there, the world almost ended. If the Elementals could perceive intent, don't you think that it wouldn't have taken as long for the two sides to come to neutral ground?
I really do not believe that the Elementals are able to perceive intent at all, which is why they don't give a fig if your intentions were good, they care that you picked the wrong fruit off the sacred tree. They don't care why. They don't care if you had good reason. They said you couldn't have it, and you took it anyway.
Quote:Quote:We know Elementals can’t really differentiate between different individuals with similar aether.In other words: people with similar personalities, similar goals, the same heritage (possibly out to and including being of the same race), who spend a lot of time in the same place as each other...
I have yet to see anything that indicates that the Elementals can differentiate between mortals at all, with the exception of certain Hearers and the Padjal. Mortals appear to be just "mortals" to them. They don't even appear to differentiate between children and adults. A child can incur their wrath just as easily as an adult.
Quote:Now I kind of want to see a story about a Qestir who, on arriving in Eorzea, learns that they are a Hearer. That'd be interesting.
If the ability to Hear Elementals is, in fact, a genetic quirk (or at least something passed along bloodlines), it's possible that you could find someone from a completely different continent with the ability. But I would imagine that, under certain circumstances, that could cause some real problems for them. I mean, people who hear voices are generally thought to be insane.
RE: Couerlclaws - Kilieit - 07-30-2016
You misunderstood me again - I'm saying of course a normal mortal can't communicate with an Elemental through the Elementals' "language", because doing so hurts them.
So you need someone with special skills to be able to translate.
You didn't read how I clarified my meaning of "intent" - I mean what you are intending to do at this moment. As in. "I am intending to strike my fingers against the plastic." Not "I am intending to communicate with you." It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the basic jist of what I'm trying to talk about.
And yes. That's what I said. They seem aware that there are lots of mortals, and are capable of differentiating "X mortal is more similar to Y mortal than Z mortal is" when they try (see: 3.0 quest). But that doesn't mean they're interested in concepts like individuality and nuance.
It's really difficult to talk about this when you misread or misunderstand 50% of what I'm writing, I'm sorry. x_x
RE: Couerlclaws - LiadansWhisper - 07-30-2016
(07-30-2016, 06:00 PM)Kilieit Wrote: You misunderstood me again - I'm saying of course a normal mortal can't communicate with an Elemental through the Elementals' "language", because doing so hurts them.
So you need someone with special skills to be able to translate.
You didn't read how I clarified my meaning of "intent" - I mean what you are intending to do at this moment. As in. "I am intending to strike my fingers against the plastic." Not "I am intending to communicate with you." It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the basic jist of what I'm trying to talk about.
And yes. That's what I said. They seem aware that there are lots of mortals, and are capable of differentiating "X mortal is more similar to Y mortal than Z mortal is" when they try (see: 3.0 quest). But that doesn't mean they're interested in concepts like individuality and nuance.
It's really difficult to talk about this when you misread or misunderstand 50% of what I'm writing, I'm sorry. x_x
When I'm reading your posts, and you're using "they" to describe both the Elementals and the mortals, and not really differentiating between them, it's kind of difficult to catch on that you're speaking of the mortals understanding the intent of the Elementals (which seems to be what you were saying in the first part, although I read it completely backwards because, again, you only mention the "mortals" in the context of, "We know they have problems when they try to do this"). But since apparently "intent" is meant in a completely different context than I've ever seen it used before in conversation (see below), I misunderstood that part as well.
Also, I guess I'm just reading the words "intent" and "intentions" differently. Usually, when the words "intent" and "intentions" are being used, they're referring to the reasoning behind an action. We all see what people do, but to understand the intent behind the action, we'd have to either be mind-readers or know more of the story, etc. Saying that you're using "intent" and "intentions" to refer to what people are actually doing in the moment (i.e. I'm hitting my fingers against the plastic, I'm cutting this tree down) is just...I don't really understand why you would word it that way, to be honest. It seems a really round about way to address it. So, yes, I completely misunderstood what you were saying because I read "intent" to mean the reasons behind the actions themselves, not I'm intending to throw this rock at your head.
RE: Couerlclaws - Charity322 - 07-30-2016
Hearing isn't understanding the elementals' language though is it? Because if it was then anyone could learn it, just like any other language. Also, people with the Echo would automatically understand them. I thought that Hearing was more being able to hear the elementals speaking at all.
So even if the elementals could understand our language they couldn't communicate their responses to it without a Hearer. Do they even have a language or do Hearers just telepathically communicate with them?
RE: Couerlclaws - LiadansWhisper - 07-30-2016
(07-30-2016, 11:35 PM)Charity322 Wrote: Hearing isn't understanding the elementals' language though is it? Because if it was then anyone could learn it, just like any other language. Also, people with the Echo would automatically understand them. I thought that Hearing was more being able to hear the elementals speaking at all.
Hearing is both being able to "hear" the words of the Elementals, and being able to understand it.
People with the Echo (well, specifically the Warrior of Light has this ability, but it's suggested elsewhere that not everyone with the Echo does) are able to understand any and all languages, and this is a possible explanation for why you, as the main character (since we are each playing the Warrior of Light in the questlines), are able to understand what you're able to understand from the Elementals.
Quote:So even if the elementals could understand our language they couldn't communicate their responses to it without a Hearer. Do they even have a language or do Hearers just telepathically communicate with them?
It's never really been defined, as far as I know. To me, it appears more akin to telepathy than physical speech. Kan-E-Senna says at one point that although she's speaking out loud, that's not how she's actually communicating with the Elementals, that she's speaking to them with thoughts and emotions.
RE: Couerlclaws - Charity322 - 08-04-2016
Something someone said today that reminded me of this thread. They mentioned the Ala Mhigans not being allowed into the Twelveswood and surmised that it was because the elementals still remember the Autumn War when they tried to invade. So maybe our Hearer is telling the truth after all.
RE: Couerlclaws - Parvacake - 08-04-2016
(07-30-2016, 11:54 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:They go a little more in-depth with it in the MSQ as well in HW (won't go into that very much because spoilers but you'll know it when you see it). One way they described human speech was that, to the elementals, it was nothing but air. To ask the elementals of a specific task is a rather large undertaking because you have to communicate in ways most people aren't knowledgeable in that tends to go outside our basic understanding as mere mortals.(07-30-2016, 11:35 PM)Charity322 Wrote: Hearing isn't understanding the elementals' language though is it? Because if it was then anyone could learn it, just like any other language. Also, people with the Echo would automatically understand them. I thought that Hearing was more being able to hear the elementals speaking at all.
Hearing is both being able to "hear" the words of the Elementals, and being able to understand it.
People with the Echo (well, specifically the Warrior of Light has this ability, but it's suggested elsewhere that not everyone with the Echo does) are able to understand any and all languages, and this is a possible explanation for why you, as the main character (since we are each playing the Warrior of Light in the questlines), are able to understand what you're able to understand from the Elementals.
Quote:So even if the elementals could understand our language they couldn't communicate their responses to it without a Hearer. Do they even have a language or do Hearers just telepathically communicate with them?
It's never really been defined, as far as I know. Â To me, it appears more akin to telepathy than physical speech. Â Kan-E-Senna says at one point that although she's speaking out loud, that's not how she's actually communicating with the Elementals, that she's speaking to them with thoughts and emotions.
What the elementals do seem to understand, if nothing else, are our actions.
Even if we can't communicate outright, if someone desecrates their forest? They remember that. If a war is raged in their woods? They remember that too.
The Hearers/Kan-E-Senna and her brood tend to smooth over miscommunications and misunderstandings as needed. Which I think is probably why the elements are so tolerable of people being around compared to other points in history. But, as history has shown, that could very easily change.