(08-20-2015, 01:32 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend. 

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

I changed it to "Witty" though this also applies to "Genius" characters so many people love to RP. And I do mean dumb, not slow. Dumb. Stupid. Not smart. Someone intellectually challenged.

Someone who even if they take five minutes to respond, no matter how great they are, their responses are hardly intelligent or thoughtful. I know far too many characters that their players OOC tell me they are "geniuses" only to find out they are acting like bumbling fools when they are put to the test, simply because the role-player is lacking in mental faculties. Characters who act irrational and emotional when their players claim they are the ultimate scientists who are oh-so-cold and calculating.

(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:

(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters. 

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

(08-20-2015, 02:46 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 01:32 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend. 

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

I changed it to "Witty" though this also applies to "Genius" characters so many people love to RP. And I do mean dumb, not slow. Dumb. Stupid. Not smart. Someone intellectually challenged.

Someone who even if they take five minutes to respond, no matter how great they are, their responses are hardly intelligent or thoughtful. I know far too many characters that their players OOC tell me they are "geniuses" only to find out they are acting like bumbling fools when they are put to the test, simply because the role-player is lacking in mental faculties. Characters who act irrational and emotional when their players claim they are the ultimate scientists who are oh-so-cold and calculating.

I have a hard time believing this can be quantified via your own experiences with players of lesser wit than their characters. I have roleplayed with people who are quite slow of wit -- but they see witty characters on TV or have read them in books, and use what they've seen to produce a properly convincing performance that fits their narrative well. 

If you want to attribute it to the player's WRITING or their ability to pull from what resources and references they have available...that I can understand. The answer remains though, yeah, a less mentally proficient/witty player is capable of portraying someone with wit -- regardless of your handful of experiences. 

It's not something that is impossible. If the less mentally proficient/witty player can write something good enough, or even get HELP from someone to write something good enough, that is literally all they need. 

Of course, this all depends on the subjective view of what is 'dumb'. Immaturity, inexperience, a slower pace of learning can all be presented as 'dumb' by an impatient enough and judgmental enough observer. 

Something that many of us roleplayers at times tend to be, myself included.

(08-20-2015, 02:39 PM)Ignacius Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 02:21 PM)Nebbs Wrote: You can roleplay what you want. Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

Well, unfortunately, the people who are to say if someone can RP and judge their results are the other players.  People can RP what they want.  At issue is our reaction as an audience.  That's a big problem, because, like it or not, the entire point of person-to-person interaction is judgement, and RP is a social activity.

The OP has said, very directly, that the player stated that their character was a genius, and then the character very obviously was not.  This is very important, because this isn't all that uncommon.  Genius, wit, etc, that's all based on interaction and comes from the audience.  We, as roleplayers, are also not in any position to be told what a character is when the character can't be backed up with actual writing.  It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to RP with someone whose RP grates on your nerves.  This dissonance is one of the major reasons why that has nothing to do with metagaming and bleed.

So, you can RP whatever you want, but you have no room to complain if you're frozen out of RP (also what commonly happens to these players).  You are all judging (and being judged) every time you speak in public, including your RP skills.  Hell, we're all judging each other here and trying desperately not to seem like we are.  Such is the nature of social interaction.

Characters who actually seem genuinely witty and intelligent are generally written by witty and intelligent players.  And, to be fair, it's not a pandemic of people who are punching above their weight class.  Players tend to write characters as witty or intelligent as they can manage, which isn't what I'd call genius but not certainly dumb.

But people who are not themselves witty or intelligent at all certainly aren't going to write characters who are convincingly witty or intelligent.  Generally, if you have to tell someone what they're supposed to think, as in the OP, you aren't convincing anyone.  I simply don't think it's right to tell other people they have to take the character description as the gospel even when they are reading that it's inaccurate in the actual RP.

(08-20-2015, 02:58 PM)Kaiz Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:

(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics. 

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part. 

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on. 

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters. 

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

 
That's just it, though. RP isn't improv. I don't know of your father roleplays or is just approximating based on what you've shown him, but as someone who grew up in acting and improv and who also RPs, they are very different.  The amount of pressure on you in improv is totally different from RP and your posting speed can very considerably without problem. 

Also you can absolutely have a script to follow in rp, and no one will necessarily ever know about it unless they're sitting behind you at your computer watching you glance at your notes.

(08-20-2015, 03:04 PM)Nebbs Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 02:39 PM)Ignacius Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 02:21 PM)Nebbs Wrote: You can roleplay what you want. Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

Well, unfortunately, the people who are to say if someone can RP and judge their results are the other players.  People can RP what they want.  At issue is our reaction as an audience.  That's a big problem, because, like it or not, the entire point of person-to-person interaction is judgement, and RP is a social activity.

The OP has said, very directly, that the player stated that their character was a genius, and then the character very obviously was not.  This is very important, because this isn't all that uncommon.  Genius, wit, etc, that's all based on interaction and comes from the audience.  We, as roleplayers, are also not in any position to be told what a character is when the character can't be backed up with actual writing.  It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to RP with someone whose RP grates on your nerves.  This dissonance is one of the major reasons why that has nothing to do with metagaming and bleed.

So, you can RP whatever you want, but you have no room to complain if you're frozen out of RP (also what commonly happens to these players).  You are all judging (and being judged) every time you speak in public, including your RP skills.  Hell, we're all judging each other here and trying desperately not to seem like we are.  Such is the nature of social interaction.

Characters who actually seem genuinely witty and intelligent are generally written by witty and intelligent players.  And, to be fair, it's not a pandemic of people who are punching above their weight class.  Players tend to write characters as witty or intelligent as they can manage, which isn't what I'd call genius but not certainly dumb.

But people who are not themselves witty or intelligent at all certainly aren't going to write characters who are convincingly witty or intelligent.  Generally, if you have to tell someone what they're supposed to think, as in the OP, you aren't convincing anyone.  I simply don't think it's right to tell other people they have to take the character description as the gospel even when they are reading that it's inaccurate in the actual RP.

I kind of agree to some degree. 

It seems that you are saying that as players we have certain standards and expectations that we look for in our RP interactions. That we will exclude those people that do not match our criteria from our RP? I would agree that most people have this to one degree or another.

Yet another person may find that player's RP acceptable, where as others may not.

What we take from what someone plays is up to us. In fact it is quite possible to fill in the deficiencies we see from the other player ourself. In effect compensate for the variations in style, depth etc.. Ever RPed with a children?

Now the more we have to do this the more it becomes a problem and the less likely we are to come back. The less we have to do this the better the interaction will go. I dare say the dumb person in this set-up finds the not so dumb elitist equality as frustrating and boring (Penny vs Sheldon)

I can quite accept that if someone makes no attempts to back up the assertion their character is a genius then it is definitely not convincing. Yet the question is "can" they, and with some effort they can. Some however choose not to make the effort.

(08-20-2015, 03:18 PM)Ignacius Wrote: Going by this analogy, everyone believes Penny and Sheldon to be intelligent people.  We're talking about the equivalent of Rick Ross trying to ghost write his own scientist character in, expecting to have the audience receive him as a genius.

Hey, I would believe Rick Ross writing himself as a threatening, muscle-bound thug.  Not only was he a corrections officer, but he seems to understand that lifestyle.  But nobody is going to buy him as a scientist when he's running on his own wit.

There's no problem being as witty, intelligent, or charismatic as you can be, but punching above your weight comes across differently in RP.  Because the writing and acting are happening simultaneously, the audience receives a character who thinks he's smarter, wittier, and more charismatic than he actually is.

Honestly, I can't even recommend people don't play a charismatic character unless they know their limits, as an aside.  I can't stress that enough.

In any case, it's not endemic because people don't usually play characters like "genius", "charming", or "witty".  Most experienced RPers know better.  They throw out witty lines or are charming as a byproduct of the character, and so they operate within their limits simply because they aren't shooting higher.

And, let's be frank, we're ABLE to be things that we aren't, but can certainly RP.  I mean, most of us can be a lot wittier than we are, but we tend to temper it with some pleasantness so we bite off a lot of our witty repartee if it's too mean.  Our RP characters might not be anywhere near so limited.

But yes, there is such a thing as trying to play someone above your weight class, and the best way to avoid it is to let the audience decide your characters' intelligence organically and just play what your character would play.  At the very least, someone might say, "Look, he's not Mark Twain, but the guy knows his machines."

(08-20-2015, 03:25 PM)GloryRhodes Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 03:18 PM)Ignacius Wrote: Going by this analogy, everyone believes Penny and Sheldon to be intelligent people.  We're talking about the equivalent of Rick Ross trying to ghost write his own scientist character in, expecting to have the audience receive him as a genius.

Hey, I would believe Rick Ross writing himself as a threatening, muscle-bound thug.  Not only was he a corrections officer, but he seems to understand that lifestyle.  But nobody is going to buy him as a scientist when he's running on his own wit.

There's no problem being as witty, intelligent, or charismatic as you can be, but punching above your weight comes across differently in RP.  Because the writing and acting are happening simultaneously, the audience receives a character who thinks he's smarter, wittier, and more charismatic than he actually is.

Honestly, I can't even recommend people don't play a charismatic character unless they know their limits, as an aside.  I can't stress that enough.

In any case, it's not endemic because people don't usually play characters like "genius", "charming", or "witty".  Most experienced RPers know better.  They throw out witty lines or are charming as a byproduct of the character, and so they operate within their limits simply because they aren't shooting higher.

And, let's be frank, we're ABLE to be things that we aren't, but can certainly RP.  I mean, most of us can be a lot wittier than we are, but we tend to temper it with some pleasantness so we bite off a lot of our witty repartee if it's too mean.  Our RP characters might not be anywhere near so limited.

But yes, there is such a thing as trying to play someone above your weight class, and the best way to avoid it is to let the audience decide your characters' intelligence organically and just play what your character would play.  At the very least, someone might say, "Look, he's not Mark Twain, but the guy knows his machines."

 So, are you thinking you're one of the ones who are witty?  Because that is not what I'm taking away here.

You just made two posts in a row.  whhhhy


It feels spammy with the way I learned to post in forums

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YOU CAN EDIT THE QUOTES YOU QUOTE

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QUOTE TREES!

(08-20-2015, 04:31 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Self-assigning traits is an easy mistake. Calling yourself "genius" or "witty" or "brave" or "badass" doesn't do anything if your roleplay and writing don't back it up.

Do you, and people will make the connections if you're able to fit the criteria.

(08-20-2015, 04:58 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 04:31 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Self-assigning traits is an easy mistake. Calling yourself "genius" or "witty" or "brave" or "badass" doesn't do anything if your roleplay and writing don't back it up.

Do you, and people will make the connections if you're able to fit the criteria.

As far as what others would say about your toon, absolutely. But, when someone creates a toon and they're trying to figure out what personality they'll have, it's pretty normal for the player to have an "intended" portrayal. Whether or not they're capable of succeeding at that portrayal based on their own personality as a player is the question at hand.