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+--- Thread: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop (/showthread.php?tid=11258)
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Kage - 04-24-2015
All someone has to do is grab a bunch of free mods, put all the mods into one, upload it as a paid for mod.... and they'd get money for free.
This isn't implemented well for even modders who are interested into getting into developing. This is just bad.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - D'eshel - 04-24-2015
(04-24-2015, 12:25 PM)Kage Wrote: All someone has to do is grab a bunch of free mods, put all the mods into one, upload it as a paid for mod.... and they'd get money for free.
This isn't implemented well for even modders who are interested into getting into developing. This is just bad.
That's something that already happened. I think it was also labeled as a "early access" mod, which then got brought down by Valve.
early access mod
for people to buy
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Kage - 04-24-2015
They've removed mods that were put up for free but had ways to donate instead from what I'm seeing on boards.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Titor - 04-24-2015
Ok, this is something that I am really passionate about, a programmer by both trade and hobby.Â
I will start off by saying that the only issue here appears to be implementation and profit cuts to the modder.Â
To all of the people who are raging about spending money on it... this is what gets to me.
If an artist on a forum was giving away freebies for a while, then suddenly decided to start charging for their work, would you feel the same way? The artist was working for free out of passion/enjoyment/the community, but if they stumbled upon hard times or were looking for extra money for food or whatever, would you get all up on their case for now charging for a service that they once gave for free?Â
Just because someone enjoys something and likes a community, does not mean that they should be obligated to give away their passions for free. This is the same with everything, art, code, writings, inventions. No one has to give anything away for free. If you do not want it, do not buy it. If it is not selling, they will lower the price eventually, and if they are not and getting no sales, then they probably do not care much about the mod to ensure its succees.Â
I really dislike the mentality to coders in particular, that software, services, mods, whatnot should come for free, as if the code falls onto our lap and suddenly appears. This is not expected so much in many other fields. Like any other field, it is a lot of hard work and requires time and concentration to do it, alas I feel it is often veiled behind obfuscation to the non-coder-inclined and not many people understand the sheer amount of time and effort that it takes.Â
I wholeheartedly support allowing third-party coders and modders (Though I cannot much speak for the texture community as I am not a part of it, but my ideas still apply to them) to profit off their time and effort. Remember that modders are NOT being payed by the company for the time they spent augmenting their game. They are not double dipping, they should not be guilted and blamed for wanting to get a bit of extra money at the end of the month for something they spent time and effort on.
I have coded some mods in the past, and if I could have gotten compensated for them at the time, I would have (This was for MC, so I guess I got a bit of compensation as I got curse premium for life). This would especially help out people such as college students, who can find a way to pull in a bit of money for food through college while also being able to do something they enjoy, which is wonderful. Or anyone else on a tight budget, really.
If you do not want to buy something, do not buy it. The only issue here is the significant cut that steam is taking from the mod developers. Even then, that is not very uncommon in any field. Stock photography artists, stock music artists, and other such sites often take a large cut from 'the person'. The large cut is the only thing I would protest against the whole thing. A share should be given to the companies for enabling development of mods and promoting them, but perhaps more of 30-30-40, valve/developer/modder, or just splitting things equally into thirds.
Please stop getting mad and scoffish at modders who want to get a bit of extra money. They are unlikely going to be quitting their job over this and are definitely not out to be greedy. They are just trying to charge for a service, which is a very normal thing to do in life.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Kage - 04-24-2015
They've removed all the paid mods currently.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - D'eshel - 04-24-2015
I honestly don't understand how any of what you were writing about, Titor, is related to this issue.
It's not the case of modders asking for donations/money for their work.
It's the case of Valve/Bethesda wanting to get a slice of the money the modders could/are getting and then creating the means to get them.
The example you posted would relate if Square-Enix would suddently want to get a slice of the profit from the artwork (since it would be a part of the setting they created) along with whoever owns RPC.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Titor - 04-24-2015
(04-24-2015, 02:40 PM)D Wrote: I honestly don't understand how any of what you were writing about, Titor, is related to this issue.
It's not the case of modders asking for donations/money for their work.
It's the case of Valve/Bethesda wanting to get a slice of the money the modders could/are getting and then creating the means to get them.
The example you posted would relate if Square-Enix would suddently want to get a slice of the profit from the artwork (since it would be a part of the setting they created) along with whoever owns RPC.
Actually the OP mostly talks about how the modders should not ask for money
From OP:
Quote:Lastly, mods are a reflection of the passion of the community of the game, and this way you are just forcing people, and modders will just do out of profit instead of passion. It's honestly very concerning how many industries are pushing absurd things, and how they're becoming the rule nowadays.
I was mostly countering the points from the OP and first page of comments or so, from there it started turning into a distaste for the cut that the corporations are taking, which I agree it is a bit steep. Â But originally the posts were talking about how modders should not charge for something that they have been up to now providing for free.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Mercer - 04-24-2015
And the paid mods are back up again, looks like it was just database work.
The main problem I have with how Valve has handled this transition is the sudden change (Though mod makers were notified before hand, fyi), the horrible pricing structure and the legal implications of using others work.
Mod work, especially Skyrim's mod community. The vast majority is built on the work of others with the Expanded Scripts team being the cornerstone of the community. Restricting some of it to a paywall restricts other mods from working or the authors steal the parts they need for their own mod.
If the Expanded Scripts team decided to go behind a paywall they would single handedly bring the Skyrim modding community to it's knees.
The legal implications stem from the wide use of using other author's works as well as the heavy use of copyright images. It stumbles into a very murky area of fair use law as the likeness of one product is used in another. For example, using Final Fantasy armor, characters or weapons in Skyrim.
The implementation is a mess, mod authors are getting screwed pretty hard by the sudden change in standards that they have to conform with. The reach of such a change is larger than just Steam, as was evidenced by the DDOS attack on Nexus earlier today.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Desu Nee - 04-24-2015
(04-24-2015, 03:11 PM)Titor Wrote: I was mostly countering the points from the OP and first page of comments or so, from there it started turning into a distaste for the cut that the corporations are taking, which I agree it is a bit steep. Â But originally the posts were talking about how modders should not charge for something that they have been up to now providing for free.Frankly, my problem is less about the Modder being paid, and more about mods became third party DLC, and the overrall quality of mods falling because of it. Ideas like Greenlight and Early Access worked in theory, but we see the mess Steam is with them, and how the mechanic was abused.
Not every modder will rightfully deserve the pay, some will steal and by the time it's taken down they probably already made cheap bucks, and overrall monopolizes the modding community, becoming in my eyes less of a passion, and more of a business, which Valve makes profit by doing literally nothing.
Many mods I donated because they rightfully deserved money, like the one is Skyrim that adds an entire region, and Project Nevada from Fallout, so this is not really because I want freebies.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Cato - 04-24-2015
The 'don't like it, don't buy it' phrase seems to have become something that is thrown around a lot these days. Voting with one's wallet very rarely leaves a dent in a large business and it's perfectly possible to enjoy a product but hate the dubious cash grab practices associated with it.
There's also the danger that if people don't speak out then gaming will continue to become even more expensive and prone to even more attempts to squeeze money out of consumers. It doesn't help that a lot of people have more money than sense either.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Kellach Woods - 04-24-2015
IIRC it's publisher what determines the cut they want to take for themselves beyond the standard Valve cut. In this case, it's Zenimax being complete dicks but by having Valve straight up put the power in the hands of the publisher it kinda ensured that the modder themselves would get screwed.
I don't personally care (I don't often play games that would be very much improved with mods or work well with the workshop) but it looks like an abusive practice with a pittance to the mod developer to pacify them.
Also, it's a legal nightmare that modders have almost no defenses against. Wheeeeeee. I can't wait to see Modder vs. Zenimax go to actual court when the inevitable "fuck over the little guy" part happens. Oh wait, the modder's not living on the North American continent and all litigation has to be handled by the court of California? WHOOPS.
Oh, even better - who do I send my freelance worker bill to after paying and testing a blatantly unfinished mod? I'm not doing QA work for free since I am actually a paid professional in that field.
Valve has never had a single thought for the ramifications of what they're doing. I know I'm being facetious with most of these scenarios (especially the one involving QA work I mean if even regular devs don't want to pay for QA work imagine modders!) but it's just stuff off my head that could and likely will happen.
Ultradavid's probably thinking to himself that he'll need to expand with all this shit going on.
* * *
I kinda lol at the proposition that they'd release the sixth one free. Sure they stand to make good money on mods, but you're deluding yourself that they can make the kind of money they would by just straight up releasing the game at 60/70$ and THEN charging for mods.
Voting with your wallet only works locally, where your "vote" "matters". Otherwise, you need concerted action because technically everyone votes with their wallet - this thread being a perfect example.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - SicketySix - 04-25-2015
Just seen through an IGN posting on Favebook, looks like they removed this whole scheme.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Desu Nee - 04-25-2015
(04-25-2015, 06:41 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: Just seen through an IGN posting on Favebook, looks like they removed this whole scheme.Nope it's here to stay. Valve knows PC Gamers have little places to turn? GoG? Origin?
They've already won, they hold the monopoly, and there is people who defend this.
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - Clover - 04-25-2015
Hahahaha, my Skyrim tumblr dashboard has exploded. I must say I'm laughing a lot at the bizarre mods people have started selling; it's a somehow very sad, yet at the same time very funny situation *sweatdrops*.
I'm glad IÂ get most of my mods from Nexus, but now I fear for the hairstyle of one of my characters...
RE: Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop - OttoVann - 04-25-2015
Why are people here going ballistic over the 75% cut when Valve is giving access to sell goods via their infrastructure and tools to their developed and robust install base.
Do people here think anyone should be able to utilize that for peanuts to free? Valve should let you profit of their work for free because...?