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Re: Cliche RP Elements - Guest - 03-22-2010
Well, it can't be Drizzt, so we can cross him off the list.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - SolanaVernon - 03-22-2010
Haha, you guys are silly. Going to drop some experience here. Went over the whole thread and I'm having a hard time keeping up with it. :drunken:
In my linkshell, quite a bit of people were transsexuals (Male Mithra undercover!) or just flat out homo. I guess we could call that a cliche.
Another one being, being half-creature. It worked for most people. I don't mind. Solana has chocobo tendencies. As long as it was explained, then I saw no problem with it.
We had an Alchemist who was half crawler from a botched-up experimental accident.I never did see a problem with demons or having wings. On many occasions, you see characters turn into wyverns, become ravaged beasts from curses, become possessed, etc. etc. It's a magical world out there where many things can happen. Because people can transform and you have the experiments which appeared when Aht Urhgan appeared, it opened up a new set of what can be done in the RP world that's a bit more creative! I don't see a problem with talking animals, either. They could be enchanted. They're special beings. How would one explain the talking doll we see every so often in FFXI? What about Cardians? See? Many possibilities.
Then there's the whole half-breeds. We now know they exist in FFXI. How often, we don't know. There could be a lot of them around the world! We just never ever hear about it, you know?
This is why I tend to mind my own business until someone brings it up as a problem. It was usually brought up on the forum and said person in question had to be legitimate on why it was okay that they did x and y to their character.
What specifically wasn't allowed in my Linkshell though, were characters who would make inconsistencies in character development. Such as, the character inexplicably hates Mithra, then the next day, just suddenly LOVES them, and then they have a sudden bound of amnesia, so none of that ever really happened to them. It's not fair to the other RPers lol.
My suggestion is that many need to just mind their own business and to not be so sensitive on what people are doing. The more people worry about something that should be considered minuscule, the more there's going to be squabbling and turmoil. It's unnecessary to judge others RP and to limit creativity. :star:
Going to say this though. I remember the whole pregnancy ordeal. I can see why the person involved can be upset. Nine months is a long time to be RPing something. In defense of the other party, some people don't have that patience. We don't even know if the gestational period of the races to be honest. Regardless, the person who caused the other to be upset had character development issues to begin with. She married at least half the linkshell and had like 10 babies who fell off the face of the world and was never spoke of again.
I'm confused. BUT HERE'S A GOOD SUBJECT!
How time is managed in the world.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Nanapariri - 03-22-2010
Quote:Going to say this though. I remember the whole pregnancy ordeal. I can see why the person involved can be upset. Nine months is a long time to be RPing something. In defense of the other party, some people don't have that patience. We don't even know if the gestational period of the races to be honest. Regardless, the person who caused the other to be upset had character development issues to begin with. She married at least half the linkshell and had like 10 babies who fell off the face of the world and was never spoke of again.
As for pregnancies we had a few, my characters included, in the various LS I was in and we were all split as to time since time is so strangely accounted in many different ways in FFXI. If you go by game calendar then a pregnancy of 9 months would last somewhere around 4 months. Then there are the other features that run an RL year like Holidays which contradicts the ig year calculated in game mechanics. Not to mention some of these guys aren't human and it could be longer or shorter. Most decided on a shorter prenancy ig than 9 but longer than 4 months to meet a happy medium.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Smiling River - 03-22-2010
Quote:My money is on a legion of good-aligned Duskwight Elezen venturing forth from wherever it is that Duskwight Elezen live on a quest to prove themselves worthy despite the sins of their kin. Bonus points for anyone who has lavender eyes, dual wields scimitars, and has two z's in his name.
I think this is a little too nit picky. I think it's okay that there are a lot of people whose families were/are effected by the history of the world. For example in FFXI: parents died in the war, Orcs attacked family etc. It's actually being realistic according to the lore, although one may also view it as less creative/easy. So yes there are characters that are effected by the Garlian war, and there are the Elezen you mentioned... not just one, whole populations. So I don't mind seeing more than one character with similar background in that way.
The eye color is indeed silly, but calling various letters in people's character names is equally so.
Quote:I never did see a problem with demons or having wings. On many occasions, you see characters turn into wyverns, become ravaged beasts from curses, become possessed, etc. etc. It's a magical world out there where many things can happen. Because people can transform and you have the experiments which appeared when Aht Urhgan appeared, it opened up a new set of what can be done in the RP world that's a bit more creative! I don't see a problem with talking animals, either. They could be enchanted. They're special beings. How would one explain the talking doll we see every so often in FFXI? What about Cardians? See? Many possibilities.
There are a lot of possibilities indeed. I myself (and most here I think) wouldn't mind characters with the traits you mentioned. It's all in how well they execute these traits. Also, how many times can an extraordinary magical event be done before it becomes way to unrealistic even for a fantasy game? Okay, person A at a certain point transformes into a dragon with great RP to back it up. Then Person B, C and D do the same in the following 2 years. Would all of them be percieved as valid as the first person? How many times can this magical event take place, even in a fantasy setting. To me something like that can happen once or maybe twice with good RP before I go
. Also how many extraordinary magical things can happen to one person? One, two... three? After a while, it's a little unrealistic regardless of RP. Personally nearly everyone that I knew who RP'ed some things that you mentioned did it in a way that made them repulsive to me. Going to tie this point into the following quote...Quote:My suggestion is that many need to just mind their own business and to not be so sensitive on what people are doing. The more people worry about something that should be considered minuscule, the more there's going to be squabbling and turmoil. It's unnecessary to judge others RP and to limit creativity.
I agree, everyone should be having fun when they RP. I would never pick one someone's RP style and tell them they should change. I can provide suggestions, my point of view if they ask for it but I wouldn't go out of my way to lecture someone. However if I find someone's RP tasteless, or just not interesting to me, in order for -me- to have equal fun I'll withdraw myself from the situation and just not RP with that person. I think this is only fair for both parties. Of course I expect that if my RP style is not fun for some people, I wouldn't mind if they weren't into it. In fact I'd prefer to RP with people who are interested in my stories, and I am interested in theirs. We can all agree that it would make for better RO, regardless of the style of the group. This is why the RP community will obviously have more than one LS/guild, so that players can be with people who have similar RP views.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - River - 03-22-2010
The more I review this thread, the more I feel as though we're simply stifling our own creativity with all of these examples.
Of course, we have all had the people who go a little over the top in order to draw attention only to them, and in those situations, it just serves to make role-play less fun for everyone else.
But on the whole, I think that many of these 'cliche elements' can be and will be role-played successfully. Many of our own characters are surely going to use elements from each of these things.
And while we may not play through a two-week pregnancy, I'm sure many of you can admit that playing a nine-month one is pretty hardcore. Which isn't to say I don't respect anyone who attempted such, but if I had a female character attempting to storyline a pregnancy, I'm not sure I could do it for nine months! The point being - some role-players are more hardcore than others, and while we may all play differently, I'm not sure that our differences lessen each others' experiences and stories.
I think, as a successful coalition, we need to accept that some things are cliche because they're popular avenues for story, and have been used again and again throughout many of the books, comics, and movies we love - even things that may not be quite realistic in real life. We will all run into role-players whose stories and actions we won't entirely agree with, but again, by frowning upon certain aspects of role-play, we're simply stifling another person's creativity - someone that may actually end up creating a rich and powerful story.
I'm not saying that this thread isn't useful, but at the same time, I think we need to keep in mind that while these things may have been used a lot in stories before, they are going to be used again because they have worked for others in the past.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Guest - 03-22-2010
SolanaVernon Wrote:My suggestion is that many need to just mind their own business and to not be so sensitive on what people are doing. The more people worry about something that should be considered minuscule, the more there's going to be squabbling and turmoil. It's unnecessary to judge others RP and to limit creativity. :star:
Agreed. Personally, I really don't care what other people do with their characters. Be a demon, or a half-dragon, or a god, or a Pokemon for all I care. Though I might be a bit hesitant to RP with someone whose name is SupaSayajinCloudsama and claims to be the son of Batman, as long as they aren't a jerk, I'm fine with it. The only exception is if they aren't following the LS rules, regardless of what they are. The way I see it, the best way to avoid conflict is if everyone can agree on the rules of the community. If you don't like them, it's usually in everyone's best interest to just abide by them anyway, for the sake of the group. If you can't or won't do that for whatever reason, rather than argue about it, I would think it be better to just respectfully withdraw yourself from that community.
Mason Wrote:I think this is a little too nit picky. I think it's okay that there are a lot of people whose families were/are effected by the history of the world. For example in FFXI: parents died in the war, Orcs attacked family etc. It's actually being realistic according to the lore, although one may also view it as less creative/easy. So yes there are characters that are effected by the Garlian war, and there are the Elezen you mentioned... not just one, whole populations. So I don't mind seeing more than one character with similar background in that way.
The eye color is indeed silly, but calling various letters in people's character names is equally so.
Sorry for not being clearer, that was an attempt at a joke about Drizzt clones. For those who have never encountered the phenomenon, for some reason, inexperienced roleplayers playing in settings that have Dark Elves/Drow tend to love to make characters that are almost exact copies of the character Drizzt Do'Urden from R.A. Salvatore's massively popular series of novels set in the Forgotten Realms D&D setting. It's so common to see a chaotic good Drow dualwielding scimitars that the Overused Copycat Character trope used to be called Drizzt Syndrome.
Keir Wrote:The more I review this thread, the more I feel as though we're simply stifling our own creativity with all of these examples.
Of course, we have all had the people who go a little over the top in order to draw attention only to them, and in those situations, it just serves to make role-play less fun for everyone else.
But on the whole, I think that many of these 'cliche elements' can be and will be role-played successfully. Many of our own characters are surely going to use elements from each of these things.
Definitely true. All a cliche is is a trope that's more common and recognizable than others. Practically every character ever made can fall into one cliche or another. If a character didn't have at least a couple of identifiable traits shared by others, most people couldn't relate to them. That's what makes them characters, as opposed to a rock or a glass of water. Not to say that inanimate objects can't have character. I'm sure most of us have come across people, real or fictional, that have had less character than a doornob, lol.
That being said, I was under the impression that this thread was just for poking fun at the various stereotypes and overused tropes that we've all seen, or have used ourselves. I know I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is, making fun of any one individual. If that's the way I've come off, I do so apologize.
In the end, all that really matters is that everyone gets along and has fun (・∀・)
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Eva - 03-22-2010
Mason Wrote:I agree, everyone should be having fun when they RP. I would never pick one someone's RP style and tell them they should change. I can provide suggestions, my point of view if they ask for it but I wouldn't go out of my way to lecture someone. However if I find someone's RP tasteless, or just not interesting to me, in order for -me- to have equal fun I'll withdraw myself from the situation and just not RP with that person. I think this is only fair for both parties. Of course I expect that if my RP style is not fun for some people, I wouldn't mind if they weren't into it. In fact I'd prefer to RP with people who are interested in my stories, and I am interested in theirs. We can all agree that it would make for better RO, regardless of the style of the group. This is why the RP community will obviously have more than one LS/guild, so that players can be with people who have similar RP views.I agree with this point 110%!! I have every intention of "minding my own business" and "not being so sensitive" about others' RP, however please don't expect me to RP with people/groups whose RP I deem tasteless, absurd, ridiculous, or I feel are otherwise unworthy of my time. No disrespect intended, but I'm here to have fun too. As Mason said, I will be looking for people whose stories I am interested in, and who are interested in mine. Probably the same as everyone else. 8)
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Smiling River - 03-22-2010
Quote:Sorry for not being clearer, that was an attempt at a joke about Drizzt clones. For those who have never encountered the phenomenon, for some reason, inexperienced roleplayers playing in settings that have Dark Elves/Drow tend to love to make characters that are almost exact copies of the character Drizzt Do'Urden from R.A. Salvatore's massively popular series of novels set in the Forgotten Realms D&D setting. It's so common to see a chaotic good Drow dualwielding scimitars that the Overused Copycat Character trope used to be called Drizzt Syndrome.Oh okay, haha. You can see how without this background info I was like :shock: orly? picking on names?! xD
I agree with Kier to an extent. Sure people will have cliche elements, and cliche in itself shouldn't be perceived as bad. I think we talked about the negative, overdone, badly RP'ed cliche characters. Some people carry them through and actually make it work, while others fail to make it original. If anything it takes more skill to play a cliche/ordinary character than a completely original idea.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Aveline - 03-22-2010
Yes, cliches are fun to satirize because they're easy to do so, but I have seen good examples of all of these cliches being played out before as well, so it's important to remember that just because something is overdone or has been done badly before, doesn't mean an individual player has to rule it out completely. I think my only exemption to this list as something I really don't like to see in a set MMO world (like XI) is character concepts where they want to have wings or horns or hooves or something else not actually on their character. It's jarring to be in a fantasy world already pretending, and then have someone expect you to pretend even more just for the sake of the aesthetics of their character.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Verence - 03-22-2010
Pretty much everything I wanted to say has already been said by Kes and Mason, so I'll spare you all the wall o' text and leave you with this: I am probably the greatest offender here, if that's the term you'd like to use, but you'll note that the post listing all the stereotypes states the following:
Quote:None of these are ironclad “do not do†rules, but are more presented to make new roleplayers aware of possible hurdles to their easy and enjoyable roleplaying. If you have a concept you’re dying to try out that’s inseparable from one of these, by all means try it!No one's trying to limit anyone's creativity, here. To me, this is if anything a friendly heads-up to new and inexperienced roleplayers to say "Hey, these are some things that lots of people try and here's how they have the potential not to work so well. If you want to do it, by all means, this is just here to make sure you know the potential difficulties of what you're getting into. Now that you're informed, if you accept them, great!" Also, it's become, to me at least, a very valid and useful forum to get a wide array of thoughts and opinions on what extent people are willing to diverge from the lore. So far, the results have been very encouraging for me since most people seem to share very similar views to my own.
Allow me to restate in no uncertain terms that the purpose of my postings is not to tell people what they can't or shouldn't do. It's to share ideas that I've run afoul of in the past so that people considering them have a fuller view of how to handle them gracefully, or perhaps if they hadn't though them through enough, avoid them purely at their own volition. I will admit deriving a chuckle or two from the more outlandish tales of roleplaying, but mocking other RP styles isn't the reason I'm posting here, and I get the impression that holds true for nearly all of us. Closer-to-canon RPers often get accused of being stuffy, controlling, or unimaginative but as I've already said - that goes both ways. It's very hard for us "restrictive" types to go along with things and have fun if the "Wait, what?" alarm bells are going off in our heads because of arbitrary world setting alterations. To me personally, it's the inability to creatively work within the bounds of what's been given that shows a lack of imagination. It's just a question of different RP styles and differing opinions, and the RPC sounds like it'll be big enough for all of us.
Anyhow, this thread has strayed off topic at the moment, and no offense to anyone but in the spirit of the thread I'd like to politely request that those choosing to post here need not defend themselves for the opinions they hold. If people would like to discuss the pros and cons of adherence to canon, fantastic, I'd be happy to chat about it. But in a different thread, please.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Nanapariri - 03-22-2010
Mason Wrote:Quote:Sorry for not being clearer, that was an attempt at a joke about Drizzt clones. For those who have never encountered the phenomenon, for some reason, inexperienced roleplayers playing in settings that have Dark Elves/Drow tend to love to make characters that are almost exact copies of the character Drizzt Do'Urden from R.A. Salvatore's massively popular series of novels set in the Forgotten Realms D&D setting. It's so common to see a chaotic good Drow dualwielding scimitars that the Overused Copycat Character trope used to be called Drizzt Syndrome.Oh okay, haha. You can see how without this background info I was like :shock: orly? picking on names?! xD
I agree with Kier to an extent. Sure people will have cliche elements, and cliche in itself shouldn't be perceived as bad. I think we talked about the negative, overdone, badly RP'ed cliche characters. Some people carry them through and actually make it work, while others fail to make it original. If anything it takes more skill to play a cliche/ordinary character than a completely original idea.
Since my topic started this I just wanted to clarify things:
1) "Cliches" aren't the same as "archtypes" or common story elements. Campbell proved that all ancient myths, comic characters and the "Hero's Journey" are stories that resonate with all and are a great place to start. What would be cliche is if a person lifted the story of one of the those myths and just changed the names and claimed it as the background of their character. Like the copycat Naruuuto or Driizzzt which doesn't match the lore of the world in anyway which is just feels clumsy and unbelievable.
However cliche is something beyond that is the "copy cat" character or idea that seems to be played the exact same way over and over and crop up all of the time. A similiar element doesn't make it a cliche if its not the exact same thing.
EDIT: An example of this was the "my entire family was killed by orcs after the war had already ended and I don't know why" cliche. It wasn't so much their entire familly was killed. It wasn't so much they were killed by orcs. It was admittedly somewhat strange it was after the Crystal War ended but why was every single one of these repeated so often together in a Background? Why not have your character older, like I did with Tsumi, who actually experience the War? Why didn't they make there be a reason their family was slaughtered? Why didn't Kindred, Goblins, Yagudos or some other beastman kill them why was it always Orcs? This is why after experiencing the same thing over and over people got jaded.
2) This topic isn't meant to be nit-picky. It good to be aware of the cliches just like its good to be familiar with archtypes to give yourself ideas its good to read the backgrounds of other players in the group and see if its a cliche. If I find coincidentally my backstory is too similiar to someone elses character I'll adjust it a bit. RP is an interactive thing and if no one likes your character or finds them interesting you'll het a lot less people interested in your character and RP with you. This is the truth, it might be brutal, so its nice to know that.
I've seen a lot of new rpers confused and upset that left when people didn't react the way they wanted them to when they chose the cliche. Some left discouraged so I think its only fair to forewarn the "starry-eyed" new rper that thinks that since Sepheroth is so cool everyone will love their "Seth Roth" copycat and RP with them for hours on end. When eventually they ask "why is everyone avoding me" its not fun to be honest and tell them, I've been in that position, because some are crushed and leave angry.
3) You can play a cliche well and if you do then most people will respond to you well so I don't think its an issue. I purposely have chosen "cliched" character types while making sure I spun them just different enough to make them fresh.
For instance one of the worst RP cliches on Starsider was the Twilek sex slave girl turned dancer. They generally were sex-kitten types that weren't the least bit scarred by their terrible abused background. I purposely made an escaped Twilek slave girl but made her the exact opposite, she was 100% innocent of experiencing true cruelty and was never used for sex. She was a serving girl and dancer so she was treated fairly well by her masters. Also another RPer made a 100% cliched sterotype Twilek but gave her such depth, she's an amazing Rper, Tandian is one of the most popular characters in the community there. Both she and I were expereinced Rpers and knew just what we'd initially face as a skeptical community was susupicious of our "copycat". We had to work hard to overcome the intial skepticism and a new person often doesn't understand the community reaction to their cliche.
Basically this is a cautionary thread not a beat down.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Smiling River - 03-22-2010
Quote:1) "Cliches" aren't the same as "archtypes" or common story elements. Campbell proved that all ancient myths, comic characters and the "Hero's Journey" are stories that resonate with all and are a great place to start. What would be cliche is if a person lifted the story of one of the those myths and just changed the names and claimed it as the background of their character. Like the copycat Naruuuto or Driizzzt which doesn't match the lore of the world in anyway which is just feels clumsy and unbelievable.Thanks for the clarification. I had this in mind when I was typing out my post, but just didn't use more specific terms. I guess that's what you call bad writing? =P
However cliche is something beyond that is the "copy cat" character or idea that seems to be played the exact same way over and over and crop up all of the time. A similiar element doesn't make it a cliche if its not the exact same thing.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Verence - 03-22-2010
The discussion on how job changes will affect RP brought another to mind.
The One-Man Party - A jack-of-all trades with numerous different specialities... and completely different personalities to match. They may be shy, unassuming, and kind while a healer, and brashly boisterous with a foul mouth when wielding an axe. While this concept can be quite appealing - it's like a buffet line of characters all in one place - it can really disorient people who thought they knew your character. Why is it that they shift so dramatically simply by changing their clothes and grabbing new equipment? While it's true that what you're wearing, what you're doing, and who you're with can affect how someone behaves, it generally doesn't change who they ARE. Usually when people behave like this, it's called multiple personality disorder and considered a psychological affliction. If you'd like to play a character with multiple personalities, go for it! It could make for a very unique and interesting character. However, hinging it completely upon their current gear creates a sort of awkward and artificial division between personae - a little more thought into ordering a crowded head might produce some more rewarding results.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Jethren - 07-08-2010
I figured I'd pipe in.
In WoW dragons can disguise themselves as any race they want to, many people ran with this and started RPing as dragons. In all my years in WoW, I have yet to personally encounter one person RPing this well (I'm sure good ones were out there, I just didn't run into them) They had a large tendency to god mode: "Rawr I'm a dragon I can do whatever I want and I'm stronger than you are!" There were so many dragons (and vampires) running around that many guilds made policies that if it's not available on the character selection screen, you can't RP as it.
As far as starting out with cliches, I'm plenty guilty of that. When I first started Jethren in WoW, he wasn't very original, family killed by orcs and undead in the war vowing vengeance on the Horde etc. Then decided a couple weeks later to change Jeth and he became a carbon copy of Edmond Dantes from the Count of Monte Cristo... As I became more experienced his personality and backstory changed drastically and he ended up being my most fleshed out and original character by far. It all has to do with RP experience and being aware of the cliches.
When you're aware of the cliches you can either steer clear of them, or RP in a way to make them interesting. When people aren't aware of them they come up with many of the same ideas and then don't understand when people don't enjoy RPing with their "awesome" character.
As always, having more information can only make you better at what you do.
Re: Cliche RP Elements - Kashemia - 07-09-2010
I think one of the biggest dangers for a roleplay community is that it easily becomes to biased. Those of us who are experienced roleplayers, and I'm guessing it's most by the looks of it, will have seen so many horrible characters, so many clichés that it's easy to dismiss everyone showing a sign of them. Sadly, that also closes us to a lot of really great roleplay, because even though they are rare, some people manage to pull them of extremely well.
Some of my best roleplay was with a guy who played an evil overlord. Sounds tried and tired, right? He did it really well. The entire guild was based around having a secret agenda, he never came out and said he was evil, instead hired goons from other guilds to do the dirty deeds, making sure it couldn't be trased back to him, all the while his own guild held large scale events, markets and parties. It worked so well, but it only worked because the community allowed it. They could have scowled at the idea, but people played along and that ended up creating some really interesting story lines.
But yeah, most of this has been said before, and now it's starting to sound like I'm lifting my finger or something, which was really not my intention! This topic just got me thinking.
All above being said, there are things I'd shake my head a bit over too. I'm gonna say being related to a major lore character is one of the worst ones, because you almost HAVE to bend the lore. It wouldn't be so bad if you claimed to be the 3rd cousin of Uther, twice removed, but it's always Illidans son or Sylvanas' sister (yeah, I'm playing WoW at the moment <.<).
It's good to be aware of the cliches and then twist them and use them to create interesting roleplay. But in order to do it effectively, you have to be aware of them first