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+--- Thread: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums (/showthread.php?tid=14787)
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RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - Oli! - 01-02-2016
(01-02-2016, 06:49 AM)Valence Wrote: Well yeah, but conjurers could do the same then. And yet it's presented like it's not the thing to do, period, novice or not, unless i'm again misinterpreting the quest lines.
Also, thaumaturges could still do like conjurers for it to become safer, and also not being limited by their own reserves...
If I remember right, the implication is actually that using your internal reserves for magic is better than using your surroundings if you've got enough of it; your average Thaumaturge is packing more aether than the area around them in most circumstances. Sylphie's healing magic is very potent as a result, and Thaumaturges require much more aether than the common man as a prerequisite. Drawing aether from your surroundings as a Black Mage isn't a replacement for your inner aether, it's just a supplementary practice.
(The THM questline and other places touch on this a little more. The youngest lalafell brother is unable to become a Thaumaturge because he just doesn't have enough aether in him. Voidsent also love consuming the powers of Thaumaturges, because while the world around them is like picking for scraps, thaumaturges themselves are like walking four-course meals. If you try to use Black Magic without a soulstone / The Gem of Shatotto to focus it, the aether inside of you catches fire and you burn to death.)
As for why Conjurers don't do that, it's likely that for many of them, their internal reserves just aren't very large; most of the officially-trained Conjurers in Gridania are picked based on how in-tune with the elements and elementals they are, and not how much aether they're packing.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - V'aleera - 01-02-2016
Conjurers not needing large internal aether reserves probably plays a large part in why conjury is generally considered the easiest magic discipline to learn.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - Sounsyy - 01-02-2016
Perhaps just me, but I feel that the beliefs and history surrounding the magical arts have more to do with their mechanisms than anything else. Sure, a thaumaturge could draw aether from their surroundings like a conjurer, but then that would just be black magic. Which is forbidden to their Order. Forbidden, and ultimately forgotten, out of fear and misunderstanding than anything else.
Alternatively, a conjurer could pull only from themselves, but why would they when they have nature to pull from? The moogles taught conjury to mankind so that they could communicate with nature, it makes little sense to isolate themselves from it.
In short, they are two unique magical fields with very different origins, history, and fundamentals. Trying to determine why one does things one way and one another could have many variables and no one right answer.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - LiadansWhisper - 01-02-2016
(01-02-2016, 06:30 AM)Valence Wrote: Yeah, it seemed for some reason I interpreted wrong the way it was presented by e-Sumi.
Now then it makes me wonder something else though... If conjurers cry in horror at people like Sylphie trying to draw aether from their own bodies, and their doctrines advise now to use the aether of the land, why is that thaumathurges, who probably are even less scrupulous about ethics and stuff, don't? Why do they persist in risking their own life?Â
The black mage taboo?
It's important to remember that Conjury was never meant to be channeled from your own aether. The school of magic is set up in such a way that it's extremely unnatural (and difficult) to use it in such a manner. I have a personal theory that it might be all but impossible to manage it unless you have a natural, innate talent with Conjury that requires no real schooling to pick up. In general, Conjurers have to receive training to learn how to use Conjury, even though the art itself is not difficult to learn. Sylphie, however, appears to have been self-taught from numerous comments during the Conjurer questline. A possible explanation for this is that Sylphie isn't just a Conjurer, she's an untrained Hearer. It's implied in the storyline that her talent is inherited, and that her mother was a Hearer as well (and also untrained). Her mother was convinced that normal Conjury harmed the Elementals, because while she could hear them, without proper training she misunderstood what they were saying. She passed on that mistaken belief to Sylphie, and since Sylphie didn't exactly need training in Conjury to grasp particular spells (she managed to figure out Raise without being taught the spell), she just did things the way she saw her mother do them.
Thaum is a bit different.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - Valence - 01-02-2016
Ok I see... Thanks for the insight.
I also find your explanation Sounssy to make a lot of sense by its simplicity.
(01-02-2016, 06:57 AM)Oli! Wrote: As for why Conjurers don't do that, it's likely that for many of them, their internal reserves just aren't very large; most of the officially-trained Conjurers in Gridania are picked based on how in-tune with the elements and elementals they are, and not how much aether they're packing.
Ok... Well, let's imagine that some conjurers are as potent as thaumaturges in terms of aether and in tune with elementals and the woods... Some of them at least must be strong in aether.Â
Then, it renders the point a bit moot...Â
(01-02-2016, 12:21 PM)V Wrote: Conjurers not needing large internal aether reserves probably plays a large part in why conjury is generally considered the easiest magic discipline to learn.
It is?
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - Oli! - 01-02-2016
(01-02-2016, 04:08 PM)Valence Wrote:(01-02-2016, 06:57 AM)Oli! Wrote: As for why Conjurers don't do that, it's likely that for many of them, their internal reserves just aren't very large; most of the officially-trained Conjurers in Gridania are picked based on how in-tune with the elements and elementals they are, and not how much aether they're packing.
Ok... Well, let's imagine that some conjurers are as potent as thaumaturges in terms of aether and in tune with elementals and the woods... Some of them at least must be strong in aether.Â
Then, it renders the point a bit moot...Â
Not really; there's nothing that says a Conjurer can't draw from themselves, and Sylphie and her mother are proof that you can (but they do it poorly). The main thing is that most Conjurers don't operate in that way. The likely reasons for why most don't have been outlined by myself and others:
-- Belief; the point of Conjury is to attune yourself to nature, not to maximize your power output. If you're not using that nature, you're not attuning yourself to it. Considering that Hearers (those that are more attuned to nature than anyone else) have a natural affinity for Conjury, and that skilled Conjurers can also become Hearers after enough Conjury practice, it's likely that the two (affinity to nature and your power in Conjury) go hand in hand.
-- Inability; having enough aether for Thaumaturgy isn't an every-day thing, and it's stressed that you need a lot of the stuff in order to be a successful Thaumaturge. It's possible that if you try to take up the art without having enough aether, you'll burn yourself out in a similar manner to Sylphie.
None of these say that a Conjurer can't use their own internal aether. If they did, they'd likely be a very good Conjurer with very potent spells. What stops all Conjurers from being that way, or even most or many of them, is the fact that using aether in that way isn't something that just anyone can do, and / or that Conjury as a type of magic just works better when you use the elements you're attuned to.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - V'aleera - 01-02-2016
The other issue at hand is focusing materials. Conjurers use staves of wood and other natural elements because it enhances their ability to draw aether from nature. Whereas thaumaturges use gems and bone in order to focus and enhance their aether so they can make the most of what they have. So while a conjurer can use their internal aether, the average conjurer isn't equipped with the right tool to do so efficiently (and vice versa).
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - LiadansWhisper - 01-02-2016
(01-02-2016, 06:21 PM)Valeera Wrote: The other issue at hand is focusing materials. Conjurers use staves of wood and other natural elements because it enhances their ability to draw aether from nature. Whereas thaumaturges use gems and bone in order to focus and enhance their aether so they can make the most of what they have. So while a conjurer can use their internal aether, the average conjurer isn't equipped with the right tool to do so efficiently (and vice versa).
There is no reason to believe that where you draw aether from determines what sort of materials you have to use. Thaumatergy channels internal aether. Black Magi draw aether from the land. Both use gems and bone in their focusing brands/staves. As far as I remember, it's the type of magic you are using that determines weapon type, not where you are drawing the aether from.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - Valence - 01-03-2016
But both thaumaturges and conjurers seem to actually use the exact same fuel through the exact same elemental wheel... Just differently.
I am really starting to think that this whole affair is a mess since they changed it in a rush post 1.0...Â
The most logical explanation to me is just as Sounssy said: traditions and schools of learning that lead to different results, but different only due to tradition and doctrines.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - PhantasticPanda - 01-03-2016
(01-03-2016, 06:18 AM)Valence Wrote: But both thaumaturges and conjurers seem to actually use the exact same fuel through the exact same elemental wheel... Just differently.This. The only reason why I can confidently come to a conclusion why their style of aether channeling is different is because of the philosophies, traditions, doctrines that go into becoming a thaumaturge or conjurer. Not that one is more effective than the other. We're going into centuries of the, maybe a millennium or two of how long these schools have magic have been taught. It's well-defined and will take a lot to change the very foundation of their studies (for the majority).
I am really starting to think that this whole affair is a mess since they changed it in a rush post 1.0...Â
The most logical explanation to me is just as Sounssy said: traditions and schools of learning that lead to different results, but different only due to tradition and doctrines.
RE: The paradox of drawing aether from different mediums - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2016
(01-03-2016, 06:18 AM)Valence Wrote: But both thaumaturges and conjurers seem to actually use the exact same fuel through the exact same elemental wheel... Just differently.
I am really starting to think that this whole affair is a mess since they changed it in a rush post 1.0...Â
The most logical explanation to me is just as Sounssy said: traditions and schools of learning that lead to different results, but different only due to tradition and doctrines.
Okay, I think it's important to remember that this is a fantasy rpg. Some things don't have to make sense. Even if what you have concluded is "the most logical" conclusion, that doesn't make it correct. We are explicitly told in the crafting quests that you cannot - not that it's "less ideal," not that it's "more difficult," but that you outright can't - channel aether for one discipline's spellcasting through another discipline's implement.
Which, to me, leads to the explanation that while the fuel may be the same, the magic that uses the fuel is not . (Which is also probably why a Black Mage can't suddenly start using White Magic out of nowhere from observing a White Mage use it. They are using completely different forms of magic.)