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+--- Thread: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin (/showthread.php?tid=9674)
Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Seriphyn - 01-15-2015
"Greatness is depth of pocket"
"We have wrought sand into gold"
"For coin and country"
These are a few terms that illustrate Ul'dahn society's love for wealth, and I am interested in hearing people's interpretations of it and/or any lore references that seem to expand on it, as well as provide it with some depth.
I get the impression that some use their RL values on how they view Ul'dahn opulence, mostly because a good chunk of Western ethics tends to shun the lustrous pursuit of infinite wealth. But in defence of Ul'dah, I do not think the pursuit of wealth is done for the purposes of greed or hedonism. At least for my character, I/Kale interpret this "For coin!" mindset as meaning that wealth is the product of diligence and honest hard work.
Why is that? Because other than the royal family, there is no concept (or alternatively a lessened one) of inherited wealth in Ul'dah. Anyone, and absolutely anyone, can go from rags-to-riches. Raubahn, Roaille, so on. That is a massive point in Ul'dah's favour, especially in Raubahn's case. Right hand man of the sovereign and he isn't even from Ul'dah. This is different from Ishgard, where you are either born into the peasantry or born into the nobility, with no mobility worldstar! Or Gridania, where you are at the whims of the elementals. Your wealth is fought for. It's not simply given to you by virtue of birth.
It is from this that I believe that Ul'dah's love for coin equates to a love for hard work and earning your keep. Indeed, from "We have wrought sand into gold" shows a fierce pride in being able to set up Eorzea's wealthiest city in the middle of the freaking desert. "We can do anything" is the mindset. So, too, does that include coming to the city, working hard, and pursuing your own rewards from this diligence.
Curious to hear what people think.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Steel Wolf - 01-15-2015
I think the ability to change one's station through diligent hard work once was the watchword of Ul'dah, and so the shout of "For coin!" carried a more positive context in the society of the city.
However, recent events have seen, in my view anyway, more maneuvering for those with the coin to keep that coin and keep those in the lower stations right where they are. Continued mistreatment of refugees being the primary example of this current mindset.
I ultimately still think a fair few of the Ul'dahn citizenry feel that things can be changed through hard work, and so perhaps were shocked when rioting happened. "The ruled do not complain if they believe there is no ruler"--the higher wealth Monetarists stand to lose if a burgeoning population changes their lot in life.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Warren Castille - 01-15-2015
I'm play fast and loose with Ul'dah history here because I'm not as well-versed in it as I should be, but the city was founded by lalafell and prospered in the desert. In a medieval-ish timeframe/powerlevel/youknowwhatimean the most important things to survival are resources, and living in a desert isn't exactly going to pour crops and livestock and bounty on you. It's entirely possible that, by adopting Ul'dah as a trading and commerce hub, it would have flourished as a respite from the harsh environment -- for a fee, of course. While resources are tantamount to survival, ability to acquire those resources is the second-best thing, and in a world of trade goods and people traveling to and from, it's not unreasonable that those with the greatest wealth lived with the greatest luxury: The cleanest water, the freshest foods, on and on. Note that the phrase isn't "For Country and Coin" and it's obvious where the priorities lie.
Of course, I'm just speculating.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Telluride - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 02:36 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: It is from this that I believe that Ul'dah's love for coin equates to a love for hard work and earning your keep. Indeed, from "We have wrought sand into gold" shows a fierce pride in being able to set up Eorzea's wealthiest city in the middle of the freaking desert. "We can do anything" is the mindset. So, too, does that include coming to the city, working hard, and pursuing your own rewards from this diligence.
Curious to hear what people think.
I think the sense of greed and hedonism that people get from Ul'dah is that there is a point at which "Hard Work" becomes both relative and a scapegoat.
From the perspective of a Miner or laborer, Teledji Adeledji wouldn't know hard work if it swallowed him whole and pooped him out. He may work SMART, but Smart work is not what the Syndicate wants people to be able to do - they do NOT like fair competition, as canonical event after event bears up. The Syndicate is also quite willing to let the city fall into Chaos - again, invalidating the hard work, and lives, of a lot of citizens - for their own gain. Now, Teledji certainly believes himself to be a hard worker, but when your hard work is making sure that others' work benefits you more than them, again to said Miners and laborers, can you blame the skepticism?
Momodi put it pretty well in the intro quests- don't let the greed and nastiness of a few turn you off from Uldah as a whole. However, it's worth keeping in mind that propaganda is a tool of the Monetarists, who are eager for people to work for "Pride in U'ldah" and but keep all the gil for themselves.
Um, Calling Evangeline?
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Aya - 01-15-2015
I think the arrival of more refugees than the city can effectively handle (there simply is not enough gainful employment for so many people, and not enough opportunity for unskilled labor to translate into productivity in Thanalan due how arid and awful it is) has placed incredible strain on the culture, and the economy that culture has built.
No doubt there have always been winners and losers, but the hope of being a winner (or that one's children, or grandchildren would become winners) has sustained a sense of energetic stability in recent centuries. Their focus on material well-being as opposed to easy lives of pillage (Limsa) or defense against a constant terror at the very real dangers of an environment prepared to destroy them (Gridania) has allowed Ul'dah to become, by far, Eorzea's most successful city.
This very success is the kernel of their undoing, as it (in addition to physical proximity) is what drew the Ala Mhigan refugees, and now those of the Calamity that has followed.
In Ul'dah you always have a chance, however slim. In Gridania you only have a chance if the Elementals (through the seedseers) say you do. In Limsa you always have a chance if you are/were a pirate (and I think people really minimize just how terrible, awful, and evil piracy is/was). In Ishgard you're just screwed, unless you have pull with a noble house. Where would most people who have had their foundations swiped from under them want to be? Ul'dah, of course, despite being an inhospitable desert.Â
Meanwhile, the refugees will stab at the very thing that offers them hope. They would be treated no better in Limsa (where they could expect a 'whiff of grapeshot'), or Gridania (where we literally see them being rejected by the Elementals and told to go take a hike). Its an interesting situation, and one that speaks to the failings of human behavior where sentiment and immediate needs clouds the ability to reason and think about the long-term.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Melkire - 01-15-2015
Let's also not forget that XIV's fictional setting allows for Square-Enix to portray the extremes, good and bad, of a capitalist culture through Ul'dah. I doubt anyone takes issue IC or OoC with the merits of a system that allows you to earn a good living, a good standing, etc. What many take issue with ICly, and some take issue with OoCly, are the negative facets: that the Monetarists have become so affluent as to control the Syndicate and thereby monopolize power and wealth to the detriment of the lesser folk. This is the crux of the Royalist vs. Monetarist conflict as portrayed in the MSQ, of course (otherwise known as "Nanamo and Raubahn vs. Everyone on the Syndicate other than Godbert").
For a real-life comparison: the government, news media, and education systems of the U.S.A. are fond of toting "The American Dream," the ability to earn your success through hard work and entrepreneurial initiative, as one of most praiseworthy aspects of the country... despite how rare it actually is for someone to break through economic class barriers to such an extreme as to go from "rag-to-riches," largely in part due to suppressive measures from above.
EDIT: Telluride kinda beat me to it.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Sounsyy - 01-15-2015
I've posted this a few places before, but one of the reasons Ul'dah is so economically-centered is because the city revolves around their worship of Nald'thal. While it isn't as greatly represented in 2.0's version of Ul'dah, Ul'dah's architecture, layout, politics, and society are heavily influenced by the religion of Nald'thal.
Nald, the patron deity of Ul'dah, is the god of life and commerce. This is no coincidence. Ul'dah didn't pick Nald as their patron deity because his values fell in line with theirs, Ul'dah's values were forged because of their worship of Nald. They believe that to not strive for wealth and social status is to waste the blessings of Nald. Coin is an intrinsic part of their belief system, as coin is what buys you and your family good fortune in life (Nald) and secures your safe passage to a good afterlife (Thal).
Back when Ul'dah and Sil'dih were founded about 600 years ago, Ul'dah was actually a city physically divided in two to mirror the twin aspects of the Traders. It wasn't until the War of the Sisters 400 years ago, that Ul'dah was rebuilt upon the ashes of Sil'dih that the two halves of the city were united. But even today, that duality still persists. Milvaneth Sacrarium vs Arrzaneth Ossuary, Royalists vs Monetarists, Gate of Nald vs Gate of Thal, Steps of Nald vs Steps of Thal. Two Gods in one, two ideals in one. Wealth for now and after. Coin and Country.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Telluride - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 03:10 PM)Melkire Wrote: This is the crux of the Royalist vs. Monetarist conflict as portrayed in the MSQ, of course (otherwise known as "Nanamo and Raubahn vs. Everyone on the Syndicate other than Godbert").
That does give me cause to think. I haven't beaten Ultros/Typhon yet, so maybe I'm missing a little bit in the Manderville saga...
...but imagine how Ul'dah might change in a single, sterling night if Godbert suddenly started mistaking the other Monetarists for Chimeras.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Aya - 01-15-2015
Thank you Sounsyy! That's beautiful^_^
I think Osric is absolutely correct about the portrayal too.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Warren Castille - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 03:21 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I've posted this a few places before, but one of the reasons Ul'dah is so economically-centered is because the city revolves around their worship of Nald'thal. While it isn't as greatly represented in 2.0's version of Ul'dah, Ul'dah's architecture, layout, politics, and society are heavily influenced by the religion of Nald'thal.
Nald, the patron deity of Ul'dah, is the god of life and commerce. This is no coincidence. Ul'dah didn't pick Nald as their patron deity because his values fell in line with theirs, Ul'dah's values were forged because of their worship of Nald. They believe that to not strive for wealth and social status is to waste the blessings of Nald. Coin is an intrinsic part of their belief system, as coin is what buys you and your family good fortune in life (Nald) and secures your safe passage to a good afterlife (Thal).
Back when Ul'dah and Sil'dih were founded about 600 years ago, Ul'dah was actually a city physically divided in two to mirror the twin aspects of the Traders. It wasn't until the War of the Sisters 400 years ago, that Ul'dah was rebuilt upon the ashes of Sil'dih that the two halves of the city were united. But even today, that duality still persists. Milvaneth Sacrarium vs Arrzaneth Ossuary, Royalists vs Monetarists, Gate of Nald vs Gate of Thal, Steps of Nald vs Steps of Thal. Two Gods in one, two ideals in one. Wealth for now and after. Coin and Country.
I miss that being reflected in 1.0. If I remember correctly, in order to be interred in the Ossuary for safe keeping, you needed to BUY your way in. The Ossuary, of course, took all of your earthly belongings in exchange, but I thought it was pretty neat that everyone either got a king's burial or died a pauper. I may or may not have alluded to this in one of my thread RPs here.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - TheLastCandle - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 03:22 PM)Telluride Wrote:(01-15-2015, 03:10 PM)Melkire Wrote: This is the crux of the Royalist vs. Monetarist conflict as portrayed in the MSQ, of course (otherwise known as "Nanamo and Raubahn vs. Everyone on the Syndicate other than Godbert").
That does give me cause to think. I haven't beaten Ultros/Typhon yet, so maybe I'm missing a little bit in the Manderville saga...
...but imagine how Ul'dah might change in a single, sterling night if Godbert suddenly started mistaking the other Monetarists for Chimeras.
I endorse this completely. Why, my main might even set foot inside the city gates were this to happen.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Sounsyy - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 03:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I miss that being reflected in 1.0. If I remember correctly, in order to be interred in the Ossuary for safe keeping, you needed to BUY your way in. The Ossuary, of course, took all of your earthly belongings in exchange, but I thought it was pretty neat that everyone either got a king's burial or died a pauper. I may or may not have alluded to this in one of my thread RPs here.
Yeah, the Ossuary wanted Minfilia to pay a sum of 1 million gil to perform the funeral rites for her father. Obviously, as a kid she had no money to pay, so her father was left to the crows.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Dracyn - 01-15-2015
Ul'dah seems to me to show what happens when capitalism runs without restraint. Again I will point out the quests as proof. There is one quest where you help out an up and coming rich man, new money as it were, he's been hiring refugees left and right (and not out of any sense of profit but to give them a chance of a better life) and has found a mining vein that would make him rich enough to give him a seat on the Syndicate.
He has been assaulted once before and has enlisted the aid of the brass blades and you to protect him while he checked out this vein once more. Only to learn that his competition (who does not approve of a kind, generous new money horning in on the action) paid off the brass blades to murder him. You fight them off and save the day.
Then the woman in the street of Ul'dah in the main scenario quests. Accused of stealing something she lawfully bought because the merchant lusted after her body. The bystanders feared the man and what protection his money could buy and were willing to see this woman turned into this man's sex slave rather than intervene.
Money is everything in Ul'dah and those who control the wealth, control the power. And you know what they say about power?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
What we have a case of is the 1% with 99% of the wealth and no obligation to be generous or even ethical and the legitimate government (sultanate) has no power to enact ANY sort of control over them because they have their hands in the pockets of the entire military force except the Sultansworn while they would fight to the last man, would be horrifically out numbered.
While Limsa may have pirates, they also have the Rogues to keep the pirates from going after Limsa citizens so they at least have a real chance to move up in life, unharrassed by those already wealthy.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Aduu Avagnar - 01-15-2015
You mention that the legitamte government has no way of controlling it . As far as I can tell, the legitamate government is both the Syndicate and the Sultanate together as a sort od privy council.
RE: Ul'dah and its cultural stock in coin - Parvacake - 01-15-2015
(01-15-2015, 05:50 PM)Nako Wrote: You mention that the legitamte government has no way of controlling it . As far as I can tell, the legitamate government is both the Syndicate and the Sultanate together as a sort od privy council.That's where the intricacies of politics come in. As it showed in the MSQ, the Sultana is greatly hindered by the Syndicate due to how to defy them would be to incur the wrath of many powerful sects of the population that each Syndicate member has a certain hold over.