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+--- Thread: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God (/showthread.php?tid=8068)
Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - CrookedTarot - 08-24-2014
This is a topic that is actually pretty near and dear to me. Granted I'm sure it's been touched on before by far better people than myself but since it isn't in the obvious first few pages, I'll bring it up here.
Essentially, here is my question; how do you handle a character that multiclasses?
I've found this subject to be a bit touchy at times, so I'll approach this delicately. I have found (and this is just my experience) that in games that allow a player to swap classes on a whim (Final Fantasy XI, Champions Online, Final Fantasy XIV, The Secret World), that roleplaying characters tend to also have all of the multiclassed abilities. Now, on the surface, I understand this completely. I build my character's skill sets around what I see them having. For instance, I took up some Arcanist so Tarot could have magical 'tricks' and took Lancer to reflect Tarot's skills with a staff. Once Rogue/Ninja drops, he will move to that and likely stay there for the foreseeable future.
But here is where my question comes into play. I know full well that a number of people like to complete everything. Max all classes because they are there and to get all the amazing gear etc. I know I likely will too since I love playing dress up. But what about all those skills?
Is it okay that your character who has played as a dragoon suddenly 'has some knowledge of thaumaturge'? That sounds reasonable. But then he is a lancer, and a thaumaturge AND a Monk AND a Bard AND a White Mage AND a Paladin. Suddenly, the character is ranked alongside someone as powerful as Louisoix simply by their complete breadth of knowledge in every aspect of adventuring.
Now, I know what you're thinking; 'Oh Tarot, why don't you just play the way you want, and I will play the way I want and we can be friends! 8D' (And yes, you totally think in emotes! I CAN READ YOUR MIND EMOTES!)
Well, yeah, sure we can, but part of the problem is a bit of player ego mixed with logic. One more or less must assume that time passes in Eorzea despite us maybe not noticing it. Days pass--technically weeks and months pass while you're leveling. Within the game's system, you're actually taking quite a long time to level cap any given job.
Now, add in something else. How you divvy your time. If you're character is a Paladin, and they decide, 'You know, I should learn how to use a lance'. That means they are dividing their attention between the two weapons to learn them both to a point where a player can consider them 'useable as a threat'. But then he/she decides they want to pick up magic too. Suddenly, their attention is divided three ways--because even though you have learned a skill, you CAN lose ability to wield a sword if you don't practice.
What all of this leads to is this; giving a free pass to a character becoming skilled or well-versed in every class/job especially in the course of a week or so to the point where they can use said class/job effectively in battle decreases the viability of any player. It makes the players that specialize in a single class or two essentially useless in out of dungeon RP and it makes suspending disbelief in the characters that do learn this plethora of classes that much more difficult. How can a White Mage be something special when Chester B. Arthur over there can heal AND exploded things AND stick things without any consequences? If you were going to pick one to be on your team, who WOULD you pick? You'd pick Chester because Chester can do all those things when he really shouldn't be able to, right? I know I would.
Wrapping up this rant explaining my feelings on the subject, I want to hear others opinions. I've discussed this with people on both sides of the fence but never within the same community. This provides a good opportunity to hear the opinions from folks that have played FF XIV (and possibly XI) and what they think on the matter.
Again, not saying that the 'All I Learned' style is necessarily bad or wrong. I just want to hear how folks handle this situation or explain it--maybe there is some logical answering that I missed and if there is, I would like to hear it!
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-24-2014
I handle this myself by playing a character that would technicaly hae been outside the standard classes.
To give a little background, Franz doesn't fall into any of the categories because he is a Garlean, and a "pure-blooded" one at that. He never had any form of aether manipulation, and would have been raised with entirely different lessons on combat, and a slew of different weapons. Within this scope, I've said he's good at using a lot of different physical weapons, but isn't particularly amazing at any of them. If there were one weapon he'd specialize in, it would probably be the axe, but that's simply because I like WAR tanking with the character.
But then there's magic, where things get much more complicated. I've set this character up to have gained the ability to use aether, but there must also be consequences for it that a normal Eorzean wouldn't understand. Conjury and Thaumaturgy are simply not possible. They require a more innate and natural understanding of using ones aether/the aether around you, and that is simply not thing I feel he should have been able to learn. To this point, arcane magic, based off of mathematical formulas fits best. (And actually, is perfect due to the reason he gained the ability in the first place). He's still in the process of learning how to apply the knowledge he knows, but without that little extra "I'll just stick aether here and make it work", not everything works as well as expected. Case in point, a healing spell or two has backfired before, he accidentally summoned a fairy and had no idea how to unsummon her, and for the love of the twelve, don't ask him to even try healing someone who isn't a hyur of sorts.
The only place where I could see a larger amount of multiclassing working together is in regards to crafting and gathering classes. Naturally, a master craftsman would probably have picked a couple fields to get really good at, but a working knowledge of the others seems passable in my book. Why shouldn't a leatherworker also have enough smithing knowledge and weaving knowledge to make their own products that much better? Or why wouldn't an alchemist have some culinarian knowledge? Both would certainly make use of similar practices and potentially have some overlap. The same could be sad for gatherers. Perhaps a that alchemist/culinarian likes obtaining the freshest ingredients possible, and gathers everything himself. It wouldn't be crazy to assume that the person could tell if some herbs, a minerals, or some fish were better quality than others.
TLDR Version: Combat should have a limit for mastery, as should magic to some extent. Crafting and gathering allow for much more overlap, unless you are literally perfect at them all.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Nero - 08-24-2014
I'm not sure I can give much genuine advice on this, but let me go ahead and throw in my opinion.
1). What purpose does multiclassing serve for the character? That is to say, what aspects of your character do you want the multi-classing to reflect? Why do you want them to multiclass?
For example, you can demonstrate that a character has worldly experience by knowing how to use many varieties of martial weaponry, or that a character is very dedicated to be able to study multiple forms of martial or magical combat.
It's also important to note that you don't have to justify every class your character has in-game. To try to justify everything is essentially arbitrary and serves no purpose from a writing standpoint, and also reeks horribly of Mary-Sue.Â
To use Nero as an example, in-game I have every Disciple of War and Magic levelled to 50. However, IC he fights mostly with his fists, an axe, or thaumaturgy. This thinly-spread array of combat skills is meant to be a reflection of his wandering--he went from learning with his fists in Ul'dah, to learning with an axe in Limsa Lominsa, and cycling back to studying thaumaturgy in Ul'dah. He is, essentially, three different classes.Â
However, he's absolutely not above average in proficiency. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that he's below average. A lot of people underestimate the amount of time it takes to genuinely master a skill. Were he to fight a reasonably experienced pugilist or pirate or thaumaturge player character, he would lose. His versatility loses when pitted one-on-one against specialisation.Â
His fist-fighting is scrappy and unrefined, his axe blows focus purely on strength and not technique, and he can cast fire, blizzard, and thunder spells, but his limited time spent studying thaumaturgy (five years) means he'd never be able to cast Thunder III or Flare or Manaward IC. And sometimes his spells will fail due to a lack of focus or concentration.
2). What does your character lose as a tradeoff when they multiclass?
For me, personally, I always treat this part like assigning attribute points in RPG games. For a character to have a proficiency in something, there must also be an equal deficiency in some other area.
To use Nero as an example again, he can't use bows. At all. He hits himself in the face with one every time he tries to shoot. Even though I have Bard levelled to 50 in-game, I do not want him to have that proficiency because using a bow is difficult. Being a good archer requires dedicated training; Nero's only studied thaumaturgy with any amount of dedication, and all of his other fighting skills are from combat experience. This means he can fight reasonably well but lacks any sense of finesse or technique one would gain from practise. He also can't use swords with any degree of proficiency besides "swing the edge at people", he can't use arcanist's grimoires, or conjury. He can stick the pointy end of a lance in people but can't do much elses with them.
To bring back up my previous point, about reflecting an aspect of your character: let's say you were using a character who is very dedicated. If they spent their whole life training with every weapon and form of magic, they would be deficient in social skills due to all the time spent just practising instead of interacting with other people or building a social life.
Anyway, hopefully my rambling made a bit of sense in all of that. Multi-classing is a tricky thing but is possible without making your character appear as "good at everything".
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - CrookedTarot - 08-24-2014
Another issue I failed to touch on is age. This again has happened in all MMOs that I've played in, where I've seen people in their early 20s (I'll pull from Champions Online this time) be: Master detectives, munitions experts AND know magic enough to blow up buildings. And this is without adding in things like what a comic-book setting and wave away like alternate universes or time travel.
I like the idea of the overlap in crafting/gathering for the reasons given and since they rarely enter into mainstream RP (I've yet to see anyone thundering around in, say, the Grindstone proclaiming how amazing their fishing skills are), I forgot they were there.
I think that Final Fantasy XI did at least that much right in that you could combine classes but the secondary class could never exceed half of the level of the main class. That is, if you were a levelr 50 White Mage, then your secondary would never be above 25.
Pathfinder/D&D etc does it well. By multiclassing you're hurting yourself as much as you help. You will never learn the Level 20 special skill for the class if you take even one level in another class. I think that the main problem is reconciling time. It's easy to say 'I've been doing this for years' in a game that has only been around for a year. No one can say 'No you haven't.' Not saying that the person claiming their character is uber experience if deliberately god-modding or anything, mind you, but that it is just something we take for granted and don't give much thought over.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Tiergan - 08-24-2014
The way Nero handles it is very similar to the way I run things as well.
When it came to deciding what 'multiclass' skills Tiergan had, I just went with what made sense for his history. Tiergan was a gladiator for a long time. He was taught how to use multiple types of melee weapons. That said, while he's very skilled at using the blade (his primary weapon for most of his career), and pretty good at hand-to-hand combat (lots of fist-fights in his history) to reflect his two favored modes of combat -- Tiergan's just a novice when it comes to other weapon types. He knows where the dangerous end is supposed to go, but other than that - if he does well in combat with an axe or a lance it's purely because of combat experience and not because he actually knows how to handle the weapon.
To compensate for that, Tiergan is absolute rubbish at magic and archery. He just doesn't have the proficiency for casting spells at all and would be more liable to hurt himself than an enemy while attempting to use a bow. Additionally, ranged attackers are his biggest bane in combat. He HATES fighting mages. Archers are only marginally less frustrating, because he carries a shield, but only marginally so.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Bumo - 08-24-2014
Just because your character has "maxed all the classes," "gotten all the amazing gear," and learned "all those skills," doesn't necessarily mean you need to reflect that ICly. That's where you start falling into sketchy territory, and why you might be having a hard time trying to justify just how a character can be proficient in all these abilities.
If you do want your character to have skills they've learned from leveling different classes, consider limiting just how proficient they would be in those techniques. If your character is a Paladin, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they're likely fairly good at hand-to-hand combat (something they'd have to know if they lost their weapon!), and learning the spear would not be terribly difficult. You might not bounce around like a Dragoon, impaling enemies with diving strikes, but anyone can reasonably thrust a spear and understand rudimentary techniques with it. It's not even something you'd have to enlist with the Lancer's Guild to learn.
As for magic, that one's a bit trickier because there's a lot of discipline involved in learning it, although we have seen evidence that some people can be naturally proficient at magic; Slyphie, for example, from the Conjurer quest line. But again, if you're trying to avoid godmode, perhaps you're just able to pull off minor feats that are unrefined but serve in a pinch, or you're passable at a certain aspect of magic. To use your example, Chester B. Arthur might be able to heal things, explode things, and stick things, but how well can he do any of them? Having enough magic potency to heal a tiny cut is a lot different from being able to mend bone or repair grievous injury. You might be able to make a tiny explosion that can serve as a distraction, but you may not be able to call down a meteor. And again, anyone can swing a sword or parry with a spear at range--but how well can they do it against someone who's devoted more time to it?
Regarding player age and how they're able to be experts at anything (or many things) in their 20s, again it all comes down to how much time and talent someone has. It depends on how their character has been written. A "master detective munitions expert with enough magical talent to destroy buildings" might not actually be as far-fetched as it sounds depending on how much training and time this character had devoted to those skills. If you're becoming a 'master' at things in the course of a few weeks or months, that's when it becomes eyebrow-raising.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - CrookedTarot - 08-24-2014
(08-24-2014, 03:24 PM)Bumo Wrote: Regarding player age and how they're able to be experts at anything (or many things) in their 20s, again it all comes down to how much time and talent someone has. It depends on how their character has been written. A "master detective munitions expert with enough magical talent to destroy buildings" might not actually be as far-fetched as it sounds depending on how much training and time this character had devoted to those skills. If you're becoming a 'master' at things in the course of a few weeks or months, that's when it becomes eyebrow-raising.
Re-reading what I wrote when presented in the light you gave does make one thing occur to me. While they may be excellent in these skills, how much would their SOCIAL skills suffer? Wizards are notorious for being anti-social to the point where it's almost a trope; spending all your time shut up with books is the high fantasy equivalent of nerdom, which is NOT a trait known for having a particularly high social skill level. Nowadays that isn't the case as much since 'Nerd' or 'Geek' has shifted in its meaning, but you get my point.
So if your character is dedicated to learning all of these things before they hit the age of, say, 25, that would leave very little room for social interactions, leaving you at best socially awkward or at worst, crippled. Hmm, this is an interesting angle. Glad you helped me see it! 8D
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Kellach Woods - 08-24-2014
The whole point of the system is essentially to reduce the need for alts. Which is cool on a gameplay aspect.
If you want to play that you've done all that and are thus a master of everything? I'm not obliged to like it. I'm not obliged to play with you. I'm not obliged to even acknowledge it.
For example, I personally plan on having Kellach max out both SCH/SMN in addition to WAR. Mostly because his story has him going to Limsa to become an Arcanist and be distracted by a bunch of Yellowjackets that encouraged him to join up with the Marauders instead. So he took the long way there. Obviously, to be efficient at these three roles, you need skills from outside the scope of the character.
I just ignore that for the sake of RP. I have canon classes and fanon classes
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Verranicus - 08-24-2014
I think the player needs to know when to limit themselves for the sake of being realistic. I personally RP my guy primarily as an ecologist/author who just happens to have knowledge of thaumaturgy and just enough of an idea how arcanism works to heal scrapes and bruises. I have a bunch of classes at 50, but other than the ones mentioned I ignore them.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Kellach Woods - 08-24-2014
Just the Hand/Land disciplines should take a lifetime to master one, normally.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Verranicus - 08-24-2014
(08-24-2014, 04:00 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Just the Hand/Land disciplines should take a lifetime to master one, normally.
Dunno how it taking longer to master swinging a pickaxe than advanced mathematical spellcasting makes much sense, honestly.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Rosekitten - 08-24-2014
A friend of mine actually plays a character that 'studies' all combat and gathering forms for his research. Granted they also play the character as being fairly weak in most of these classes. IC their main class is a mage but more of a researcher then someone who willingly goes out to seek use of their magic skills.
My personal thought on this in and ooc is that you don't have to reflect all of your maxed skills ic. I know I don't. I'm missing three classes to get to 50 still and even once I get them there I will likely never mention them IC.
IC Lorraine is a Mrd. Chances are she'll never progress to being a War. Not something she has her heart set on or has the talent for. Her fighting skills are normally only used if she can't avoid a fight or if someone is in need of aid and she can lend her skills without the pair of them getting killed. I mention in her back story she knows basic lancer skills and I sometimes bring them into play if I rp a fight out. Altering how she would use her axe instead of going off of just the skills at hand. But even with training for years with her weapon of choice she isn't what I would say overly skilled or a master of the weapon.Â
Ic she more or less stays to smithing ( I lump the two together because they are similar). She won't ic go gather the materials. Sure Ooc I do in almost all of my free time but ic I state there is a supplier due to the amount of time and dedication she puts into her work. Being a smithy is something she's trained as nearly all of her life and she can still improve.Â
Not trying to tell anyone else how to think or handle things but this is just my thoughts/feedback on the topic.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - CrookedTarot - 08-24-2014
(08-24-2014, 04:00 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Just the Hand/Land disciplines should take a lifetime to master one, normally.
I agree on the hand stuff, for sure. Land is a bit more dubious since yeah, you might need time to learn when, say, a particular fruit is at its prime, or where to mine for a particular ore, but these are things that can be taught. For instance, as a farmer, if you are told when the season to pick apples is, you know when to expect to see them as being at their ripest (I know I may be simplifying things but the fact is, that is more or less how it works).
Actually making something FROM said apples, however--knowing how long to cook them to get the taste that is right, or developing a particular kind of stitch that is stronger than another. Learning how to stitch very quickly, or how to effectively cut corners without actually losing quality--these are things that a craftsman must learn more or less on their own.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Verad - 08-24-2014
"Realism" is generally not something with which I concern myself when it comes to choosing how experienced a character is. "Verisimilitude" or "Plausibility," the more-subjective younger-brothers of realism, don't come up as much either, given how widely audience expectations can vary in both counts. Generally, I do one of two things with my characters when I want them to have multiple skillsets:
1. Play them as old enough that Western roleplayers would find their knowledge of multiple skillsets to be plausible. A shame given the emphasis on youthful prodigies in these kinds of games, but the game itself isn't my audience.
2. Play them as incompetent enough that I can have them learn skillsets over the course of roleplay, rather than presume prior abilities.
In both cases, my primary concern is audience expectations. It requires a bit of legwork at first to figure out what the general trends in an RP community are with regards to what is and isn't considered acceptable, but it yields better results for me than hewing to an outside standard of realism that may be challenged the instant I attempt to do something.
RE: Multiclassing IC or: How I Avoided Becoming God - Marisa - 08-24-2014
Powerful characters are, in my mind, about as fun to play as a bucket of water. Adversity is the core of a good story, and mankind's strength comes from our unity and bravery. Being a 'prodigy' lessens your need for other people, which is bad.Â
I take it to the other extreme. My characters always start off terrible at almost everything. Sometimes they gradually get better. Sometimes they don't. Ryoko knows about 3 spells, and she's powerful enough to kill the frogs in Lower La Noscea. Her treasure hunting has, thus far, netted her 50 gil. My last RP character, in GW2, was a terrible swordsman and an opium addict who never had any money because he couldn't gamble to save his life but he'd never say no to a round of cards.Â
So yeah, you've got every class at 50. Ignore some of them. That's how I do it, anyway.