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+--- Thread: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? (/showthread.php?tid=7025)
Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Melkire - 04-27-2014
MAJOR LORE QUESTION, COMIN' THROUGH:
Is tempering exclusive to primals, and if not, which entities are capable of it?
To phrase the question another way: are claims on an individual, a la Hydaelyn's Echo (and presumably Zodiark's equivalent), akin to tempering, given how they seem to interdict and prevent tempering?
My understanding has been that Hydaelyn and the primals are essentially claiming souls when they grant someone the Echo / temper them. Putting them under their respective umbrellas of protection/domination/whatever, so to speak. Hydaelyn, being the traditional "good/benevolent divine power", allows its Chosen to retain their free will, whereas the primals strip theirs of free will.
Is this right/wrong? There more to it? Are there any other powers/creatures we see in-game (Siren?) capable of this? Â
I ask because I'm looking to develop my RP character further, but I don't want to break any established lore in doing so.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Jana - 04-27-2014
It's really a matter of how your choose to interpret it. The Ascians would probably say the player character is tempered by Hydaelyn, and it does seem that way from how the primals cannot temper PCs, but it's not explicitly stated. The closest thing to tempering we see done by something that isn't the primals is the effect of Dalamud on Nael van Darnus, which (iirc) also wasn't referred to explicitly as "tempering" (and Dalamud housed an Elder Primal anyway).
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Edgar - 04-27-2014
This is a great question, but at best, we can merely speculate, as we know only so much about the Echo and the Primals. 2.2's addition to the campaign certainly revealed some interesting information, but it was very limited.
This lack of information is why I refuse to Roleplay characters with the Echo. If something comes up in the future, I do not want to end up retconning months of roleplay for the sake of being faithful to the lore.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Sounsyy - 04-28-2014
Explicitly, we only see "tempering" associated with the six Primals(and King Moggle Mog XII).
However, we see thrall-like behavior a few other times outside of this context.
1. Nael van Darnus seems very much enthralled by Bahamut, yet it is never stated as "tempering." But that is probably because Bahamut actually being inside Dalamud was the big plot-twist of 1.0. So was it tempering? Maybe, maybe not.
2. An argument could be made for the Warriors of Light being thralls of Hydaelyn. While much of their free will remains intact, the player characters never hesitate to serve Hydaelyn regardless of dangers to themselves. In the very first encounter with the Primal Ifrit, he attempts to temper the player character and his/her companion, only to realize that we have been "claimed by Another."
3. Wildlings. While it's never said outright in game, those Wildlings claimed by the Elementals exhibit the hallmark signs of tempering. Empty husks who forget their old lives, blindly serving the Elementals whim.
4. Dragonkin also exert something akin to tempering over Man. According to Ishgardian lore, looking into a dragon's eyes or touching its scales will break your mind and leave it open to the dragon's influence. We see possible evidence of this with some of the Dravanian side missions and even in the birth story of Ishgard/Dragoons. When Thordan takes up lance against Nidhogg, the dragon king bewitches Thordan's men and they cast him into the chasm.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Olofantur - 04-28-2014
(04-28-2014, 03:13 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: However, we see thrall-like behavior a few other times outside of this context.
1. Nael van Darnus seems very much enthralled by Bahamut, yet it is never stated as "tempering." But that is probably because Bahamut actually being inside Dalamud was the big plot-twist of 1.0. So was it tempering? Maybe, maybe not.
Just to add an additional "its probably tempering" to the Bahamut situation, During your quest-lines involving Cid he talks about how his fathers focus on Allagan technology and uncovering old secrets turned to single minded obsession as he began and continued work on Meteor.
From the assorted wiki's about Cid:
"However when Mid became enthralled with Project Meteor, Cid began to grow distant from his father and was taken in by his father's friend Gaius van Baelsar who raised him to adulthood as if Cid was his own son"
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - ansemaru - 04-30-2014
It depends on the definition you want to use for "tempering", but at the very least I would say that the Echo qualifies as being tempered by Hydaelyn. I imagine that if the Twelve are what they are believed to be, they would also be capable of it. Elder primals, for that matter, are likely capable but in far less need of doing so, since their shared commonality appears to be "is already summoned and cannot be permanently removed from the world", and they would therefore have far less use for faithful servants to summon them.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Melkire - 04-30-2014
Thanks for all of the replies!
To sum up, then, and please correct me if I misunderstood anything:
- As far as terminology goes, "tempering" is exclusive to primals and other elementals. In no other case is this word dropped as a reference to establishing dominion over another's soul.Â
- "Thralldom", for want of a better word, is an established concept in XIV's lore, and there have been cases where beings as lowly as dragons (if dragons can be considered lowly) have exerted significant influence if not outright domination over others.
- Hydaelyn bridges the gap between "tempering" and "thralldom". The Echo is clearly symptomatic of a similar influence to the above, though lacking the characteristic malevolence behind tempering... and unlike with "thralldom", we have a confirmed instance (Ifrit) where the Echo has precluded tempering.
Thanks again!
P.S. Can someone please elaborate on King Mog? I haven't gotten around to trying Thornmarch yet.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 04-30-2014
King Moggle Mog is kind of an interesting case.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your point 3. Tempering turns people into slavish devotees of their Primal and often drives them to become twisted reflections of the principle the Primal represents. Ramuh, for instance, is about fatherly protection and unity, and so his Tempered followers kidnap other Sylphs to "protect" them and unify their people. Ifrit represents cleansing fire, and so his followers kidnap people to strengthen him via Tempering (to better burn away impurities) and attack "infidels." As far as we've seen, the chosen of Hydaelyn and A Certain Other Thing don't exhibit any of those characteristics; they appear to act as they wish through their own free will.
By the by, in the Ifrit cutscene, he doesn't say you've been claimed by another. That's what the Amalj'aa priest says. Instead, Ifrit says, "Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear -- thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered." To a Primal, at least, the Echo is very much not the same thing as Tempering.
IMO, I'd avoid the Echo outside of its stated, known effects: it makes you immune to Tempering, it gives you a random and uncontrolled ability to see the past, and it allows you to understand languages and idioms that are inscrutable to others by allowing you to connect with the minds of others. It may also allow you to act as a conduit for Hydaelyn's light and disrupt the possession of Ascians, but we only have a single example of that in the MSQ. Beyond that, we'll have to wait for future patches to delve further into the nature of the Echo. Certainly the Ascians feel it's a wicked thing, but consider the source.
The devs may have a curveball ready for us...
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Melkire - 04-30-2014
(04-30-2014, 04:47 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I'm not sure I entirely agree with your point 3. Tempering turns people into slavish devotees of their Primal and often drives them to become twisted reflections of the principle the Primal represents. Ramuh, for instance, is about fatherly protection and unity, and so his Tempered followers kidnap other Sylphs to "protect" them and unify their people. Ifrit represents cleansing fire, and so his followers kidnap people to strengthen him via Tempering (to better burn away impurities) and attack "infidels." As far as we've seen, the chosen of Hydaelyn and A Certain Other Thing don't exhibit any of those characteristics; they appear to act as they wish through their own free will.
Kinda erroneously lumped all this into...
(04-30-2014, 03:17 PM)Melkire Wrote: The Echo is... lacking the characteristic malevolence behind tempering...
...to save time, but yeah, I gotcha.
Ifrit definitely distinguishes tempering as something distinct ("taint of another" referring to other Primals, clearly), but it seems heavily implied that the PC's allegiance to Hydaelyn is why he can't temper them.
Not really looking to delve into the Echo here, other than as an example that there are other forms of... well... whatever you want to call it. Patronage? Sponsorship? Team Crystal vs. Teams Primal?
One more question: what's the mention of tempering w/ regards to King Mog? Anyone have a quote? Or is the manner in which he's summoned the only commonality between him and primals?
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Sounsyy - 04-30-2014
(04-30-2014, 06:25 PM)Melkire Wrote: One more question: what's the mention of tempering w/ regards to King Mog? Anyone have a quote? Or is the manner in which he's summoned the only commonality between him and primals?
During the MSQ "You Have Selected Regicide" your character and the moogle Kuplo Kopp are met by three members of the Mogglesguard. While I can't remember if they are stated to be tempered or not, they do exhibit the behavior and appearance similar to those tempered by other Primals in game. But I think a case could be made either way as to their being enthralled or not. The Mogglesguard could just be extremely loyal to a good King who sacrificed himself to save their kind.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 04-30-2014
(04-30-2014, 07:38 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: The Mogglesguard could just be extremely loyal to a good King who sacrificed himself to save their kind.
That was how I personally read it -- they weren't Tempered, just... misguided, afraid, and very loyal. All it took was an Ascian to give them the tools to save their people. They're quite good at using people's despair to get them to do horrible things.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Sonusem - 05-02-2014
I am going to go on record and say that Tempering is not exclusive to Primals, and that the player characters (as well as a few others) are tempered by Hydaelyn.
While it is true that the word 'Temper' is only used in reference to what the Primals do, I believe this to just be a cultural thing used by the non-beast tribe people of Eorzea to designate a person claimed by a god. Hence why the Amalj'aa priest says that the player is claimed by another. While Ifrit says that they do not have the taint of another upon them, I believe that this is reference to other Primals like him.
Yes, I say "god" and not "Primal." "Primal" is another thing that is cultural. The Primals are the gods of the beast tribes, and the beast tribes do not call them Primals. This is further evidenced in the main story line during the Little Ala Mihgo portion where the Ascians showed how, and convinced the children to summon Ralhgr(spelling?) in the same manner as the Primals, which is the same as with the Moogle King. While you stop them from summoning their god, the leader makes a comment about how if he was summoned he would temper his people like the Primals do and how that was not the way to do things.
From this, I have taken that all beings that are not given actual life by the Life Stream in the game are, in fact, beings of Aether, and that all beings of Aether can cause the effect of Temperence upon those given life by the Life Stream. This explains why even minor dragons can do so, as the story leads to Dragons as beings of Aether.
All beings under the effect of a temperence exhibit the same universal symptoms.
1) Obedience.
2) Worship.
After this, the individual Aether being that marks the person alters them in whatever way they do. The player character is no different, as from the beginning of the game the were ordered by Hydaelyn to stand against Lahabrea and "The Darkness." While the player character does not speak, they do agree with Minfilia when Minfilia offers worship to Hydaelyn at the times she (or others) do. While the influence of Hydaelyn may seem more relaxed than the Primals, I believe this is due to the more overall goal of going against Zodiark and the necessity for patience. It is shown in the story line, as well, that even the tempered of the Primals can work with those not so to achieve their goals. It makes sense that the players doing what they do for others is not out of the ordinary in this case. As well, having a position of influence amongst people who can fight is more advantageous to battling an enemy like the Ascians than if the adventurer was just some dude that killed monsters.
It is said in various places in the game that champions of the Aether beings are often given special gifts by their gods. The Echo, I believe, is just Hydaelyns gift to her champion/s. I'm also pretty certain that already tempered people cannot be tempered by another. Someone (I forget who, pretty certain it was Ifrit) makes a comment about how the mortal form can't hold the power of more than one, which is why it doesn't work, not that they are protected from it.
In short, all gods are Aether beings, Primals are gods, Aether beings can cause the effect of Temper in living beings, and the player characters (and some major NPCs) are Tempered by Hydaelyn.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - Sounsyy - 05-02-2014
The 1.0 MSQ "Lord Errant" is getting referenced a lot in this thread. And I'm even guilty of misquoting it. So I thought I'd go ahead and toss the actual quest text up for everyone.
Lord Errant
(Skip ahead to @13:55)
Ifrit: You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid. To which do you kneel, mortals?
Companion: I kneel to whomsoever I desire - but primals are not to my taste!
Ifrit: Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune.
Companion: Between myself and my companion, I have all the protection I need.
Amalj'aa: Blasphemy! Death to the heathens! Mind your tongue when speaking to the Lord of the Inferno, lest we cut it out!
Ifrit: Your blindness is born of ignorance. I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda... or Titan? Perchance... Leviathan?
Companion: Whatever you smell on me, it is not the scent of a primal.
Ifrit: Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed. There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked. Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall - on one condition. Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.
RE: Tempering - Exclusive to Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 05-02-2014
I was referencing the 2.0 MSQ, actually.
What's interesting is the change between the two -- in 1.x, Ifrit says he smells the taint but can't place it. In 2.x, he says that he doesn't smell the taint of another, and that's how he can identify you as one of the "godless blessed."Quote:In short, all gods are Aether beings, Primals are gods, Aether beings can cause the effect of Temper in living beings, and the player characters (and some major NPCs) are Tempered by Hydaelyn.
The whole "immunity to Tempering" thing as opposed to being Tempered by Hydaelyn is reinforced in a number of places, from the Garleans attempting to study the Echo to better fight Eikons to the giant burst of light that deflects Garuda's attempt to Temper you in the MSQ. Additionally, IMO, a lot of the actions of the Adventurer can be chalked up to "they're a good person who doesn't want their world destroyed and their homeland invaded." Also, while the Scions may be into Hydaelyn, they don't exhibit other behaviors associated with Tempered beings, such as calling her the One True God, worshipping her to the exclusion of all others, or attempting to summon her. In fact, Gaius wonders why you don't try just that in Praetorium. Personally, I don't think you need to reach to Tempering to justify the MSQ.
Also, there's the dev statement that Primals, the Twelve, Hydaelyn, and other Powerful Magical Beings (Siren and King Moggle Mog, for instance) aren't the same thing. Beyond King Moggle Mog (which is explained in the MSQ), I'd have to grab the dev post references for the rest, but they have basically said that there's differences between these entities that will be explained in future quests.
All that said, there's enough weirdness around the Echo and the statements of the Ascians that I just can't dismiss the possibility that the devs have a wicked plot twist in mind down the line.