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Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-16-2014
As we all know, Scholars used to be the military strategists of Nym. Which brigns up a number of questions:
1. In the storyline, you pretty much are the one who happens to find the stone to release the fairies and learn SCH magic from, so presumably you would not receive the same level of tactical military training as an actual Nymian Scholar would have. On top of that, in modern day Limsa Lominsa, the bulk of the military leadership is in the hands of the Marauders, even if the Arcanists may sometimes help out with strategy. So for purposes of RPing, would it be acceptable for a Player Character Scholar to be more or less just your typical healer? Could they still be an Adventurer and/or work for the Scions rather than the Maelstrom/Yellowjackets?
2. The Patron Diety of Nym was Oschon, the god of vagrants or nomads. Patron Dieties have always played a significant role in the culture and beliefs of city states; do you think that because of this, Nym was very tolerant of outsiders and Adventurers in its day?
3. The word "Adloquium" is actually Latin for "encouragement" - I looked it up. So do you think the Galvanize barrier effect is a reference to galvanized steel reinforcement, or does the word choice more or less confirm the fact that casting the spell involves verbally motivating the person you cast it on?
4. The war Nym partook in involved magical warfare, which is partly why it was so amazing that its army of Marauders with no magical training managed to hold their own. Do you think it's possible that many of the "would-be conquerers" Nym repelled were actually WHMs and BLMs from the days before those magics were banned?
5. In one of the quests it's confirmed that Scholars took on the role of doctors during times of peace. To me this suggests that most of them were probably very friendly and peaceful folks, because if they were warmongers, wouldn't their activities during peacetime involve coming up with battle plans to invade neighboring city states and expand Nym as a whole?
RE: Scholar questions - Goodfellow - 04-16-2014
1) The job has only recently been reintroduced into Eorzea, so there's no formal apparatus for forcing a scholar to work for anyone in particular. Your scholar can work for anyone he or she chooses, or no one at all. Also, I may be mistaken but I don't think you just learn scholar magic from the fairy, I think it's tied to the fairies. I think.
2) If anything I think that having Oschon as their patron would make them particularly open to traveling sorts like outsiders and adventurers. But that's conjecture on my part. It just makes sense to me.
3) That is one of the meanings of "adloquium," yes. I think you can play the Galvanize effect however you wish to. The two together make sense from a magical perspective (speaking magic to and thus galvanizing as in steel).
4) Nym was under attack all the time from mainlanders from Aldenard. They may very well have fought the main parties of the War of Magic (the White Mages and Black Mages) as Nym existed in the Fifth Astral Era which led directly into the Sixth Umbral Era.
5) I also believe that the forces of the Floating City are implied to be small, meaning I don't think they were doing much invading. As to how friendly they were, that's anyone's guess. Doctors can be crap people too. I'd say that personality depended more on the individual than the society as a whole. It's implied that their city floated for defensive purposes, so I think they were more protectionist than imperial/colonial as a whole.
My 2 gil. Someone with clearer citations or screenshots will probably be of more help.
RE: Scholar questions - Sounsyy - 04-16-2014
(04-16-2014, 05:54 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 1. So for purposes of RPing, would it be acceptable for a Player Character Scholar to be more or less just your typical healer? Could they still be an Adventurer and/or work for the Scions rather than the Maelstrom/Yellowjackets?
Undoubtedly. Since Scholars don't technically exist anymore, they would not be bound in any way to service Limsa unless your character made that commmitment. A huge part of the Scholar quest is going around and healing people. Your character would be free to travel to and maybe make a home in any of the city-states. I think so long as there's some connection to Nym in Miranda's past, no one will question your art.
(04-16-2014, 05:54 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 4. The war Nym partook in involved magical warfare, which is partly why it was so amazing that its army of Marauders with no magical training managed to hold their own. Do you think it's possible that many of the "would-be conquerers" Nym repelled were actually WHMs and BLMs from the days before those magics were banned?
Well, the way I see it, there would be nothing more terrifying to a mage than a mad-man with an axe charging at them wearing heavy armor.
As for Nym's contemporaries, it is believed that the nations of Nym and Amdapor were the 5th Astral Era equivalents to the modern day Limsa and Gridania.
We know that Nym possessed marauder legions led by arcanimian tacticians called Scholars and their faeries. And we know that Amdapor was a nation of White Mages. It's never expressed, but given the time period, we can either assign Black Magic to the Thanalan 5AE civilization or handwave the art as a commonplace magic practiced throughout Eorzea. Both are plausible. If the former, we can assume that Amdapor and the nation that built Qarn (who are actually very close neighbors geographically) were in a near constant state of war. Whether or not Nym was engulfed in this power struggle between magicks, I can't say.
(04-16-2014, 05:54 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 5. In one of the quests it's confirmed that Scholars took on the role of doctors during times of peace. To me this suggests that most of them were probably very friendly and peaceful folks, because if they were warmongers, wouldn't their activities during peacetime involve coming up with battle plans to invade neighboring city states and expand Nym as a whole?
Hehe, I wouldn't describe all doctors as friendly or peaceful people. I'd say such qualities, as well as warmongering, are qualities best used to describe an individual and can't really be attributed to an entire profession of people. There were probably quite a few bad eggs who would like nothing more than to invade other nations.
Considering the lack of actual historical data on the 5AE nations, it's hard to make these kinds of calls. Nym could have very well tried to invade other nations or wiped other civilizations off the map and we're just not aware of it.
I can't really answer Q2 or Q3. Both insights seem plausible to me. I think these are just some things you need to decide for your character or for your story. If this is even relevant to your character or are you just being curious? They are good questions though, but unfortunately not ones that can really be answered by anything but opinion. Although, after this thread and the last one about Miranda, I'm quite excited to see how she turns out! She sounds like she's going to be an interesting character.
RE: Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-16-2014
Just my two Gil also, but I personally think that if SE had intended for it to be galvanizing in the emotional sense, the effect would be something more along the lines of a Haste effect, rather than "A magicked barrier is nullifying damage".
Until I looked into it more deeply, I just assumed that the "stereotypical" personality of Scholar was like a mix of Arcanist and Dragoon, and that Nym was the ancient equivalent of Coerthas.
But I know that one poster on a different forum said, "It's certainly conceivable that a number of the Nymian Scholars were in fact very similar to Jedi Consular from SWTOR".
For those of you who haven't played, the Jedi Consular is like a healer Jedi - your character is very coolheaded and wise, studies all the time, is willing to do anything for peace. Your storyline involves finding and healing sick Jedi at first, but as the war between Republic and Empire heats up, you go on to prove yourself to be a valuable diplomat and visionary leader, and the final Chapter involves recruiting planetary allies for the Republic and basically becoming this Jedi that the soldiers tell, "Yes, we will follow you to the seat of the Empire and beyond".
(04-16-2014, 11:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Although, after this thread and the last one about Miranda, I'm quite excited to see how she turns out! She sounds like she's going to be an interesting character.
Believe me, so am I.
I would say that regardless of class choice, however, Miranda's personality is actually very well suited to the Main Scenario storyline, as it does eventually go into depth about the bickering between the city states, and using your abilities for the greater good & not just your starting city, etc.
RE: Scholar questions - Spiritual Machine - 04-17-2014
(04-16-2014, 11:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:The quest text for the Sunken Temple of Qarn calls Belah'dia a Sixth Astral Era civilization, so it probably wouldn't have been a neighbor to Amdapor. We really don't know much about the political landscape of the Fifth Astral Era--maybe because they kept blowing each other up or destroying themselves.(04-16-2014, 05:54 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 4. The war Nym partook in involved magical warfare, which is partly why it was so amazing that its army of Marauders with no magical training managed to hold their own. Do you think it's possible that many of the "would-be conquerers" Nym repelled were actually WHMs and BLMs from the days before those magics were banned?Well, the way I see it, there would be nothing more terrifying to a mage than a mad-man with an axe charging at them wearing heavy armor.
As for Nym's contemporaries, it is believed that the nations of Nym, Amdapor, and Belah'dia were the 5th Astral Era equivalents to the modern day Limsa, Gridania, and Ul'dah.
We know that Nym possessed marauder legions led by arcanimian tacticians called Scholars and their faeries. And we know that Amdapor was a nation of White Mages. It's never expressed, but given the time period, we can either assign Black Magic to Belah'dia or handwave the art as a commonplace magic practiced throughout Eorzea. Both are plausible. If the former, we can assume that Amdapor and Belah'dia (who are actually very close neighbors geographically) were in a near constant state of war. Whether or not Nym was engulfed in this power struggle between magicks, I can't say.
It's not at all unlikely that the ones attempting to conquer Nym were White Mages at least (Thaumaturges and Black Mages both also being possibilities), if the conquerors were from Aldernard. However, all the resources I've found about the Sixth Era denote their decadence and hubris, but not much in the way of warlike tendencies. I could be wrong, though.
Finally, if I recall correctly, the Scholar quests suggested that the thing that made Nym's armies the most terrifying and formidable to their enemies was the fact that, on top of being an army of mad men with axes and armor, they were also shielded with magic that both absorbed damage and healed them.
RE: Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-17-2014
(04-16-2014, 11:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Well, the way I see it, there would be nothing more terrifying to a mage than a mad-man with an axe charging at them wearing heavy armor.
Actually, I firmly believe that lorewise a BLM is more than capable of beating a Maruader. Heck, they could probably decimate an entire army with a well placed Flare. Remember how Terra roasted 50 Imperial soldiers in just a few minutes with her fire magic? And then there's Shatotto from the Relic quest who accordng to legend destroyed an entire star with her power and the fragments were used to create Stardust Rods.
But yes, the storyline implies that it was not just the Scholars' unique protective magics, but also their extensive knowledge of battlefield tactics, that really did the trick as far as allowing Nym to hold its own.
RE: Scholar questions - Sounsyy - 04-18-2014
(04-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: The quest text for the Sunken Temple of Qarn calls Belah'dia a Sixth Astral Era civilization, so it probably wouldn't have been a neighbor to Amdapor.
Good catch! I actually just saw this today when I redid Qarn. So Belah'dia being a contemporary of Amdapor would be impossible. Probably more accurate to assume it was formed around the same time as Ul'dah and Sil'dih. Same text though does indicate that the Temple pre-dates the Belah'dians and that they just took it over for their own use. So there was a 5AE civilization that existed at Qarn, it just wasn't Belah'dia.
Thanks for the fact check though, and I should probably fix my post above before someone references it! ^^
RE: Scholar questions - Mijisaa Qisaa - 04-18-2014
Oooo, what a wonderful thread. Â Really great questions and responses. Â I too roll a char who is a scholar icly so all this information is really great to make her connection much more believable. Thanks all!
RE: Scholar questions - Spiritual Machine - 04-19-2014
(04-18-2014, 05:52 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:This is more or less pure speculation, but I get the feeling from how some of the NPCs talk about Belah'dia that it existed well before Ul'dah and Sil'dah, maybe as the precursor to those civilizations.(04-17-2014, 12:23 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: The quest text for the Sunken Temple of Qarn calls Belah'dia a Sixth Astral Era civilization, so it probably wouldn't have been a neighbor to Amdapor.
Good catch! I actually just saw this today when I redid Qarn. So Belah'dia being a contemporary of Amdapor would be impossible. Probably more accurate to assume it was formed around the same time as Ul'dah and Sil'dih. Same text though does indicate that the Temple pre-dates the Belah'dians and that they just took it over for their own use. So there was a 5AE civilization that existed at Qarn, it just wasn't Belah'dia.
Thanks for the fact check though, and I should probably fix my post above before someone references it! ^^
For instance, when you first join the Thaumaturge's Guild, the receptionist tells you that Ul'dah "inherited its traditions from ancient Belah'dia, a city founded by the descendants of the first mages."
Here Belah'dia is described as "ancient", despite being a Sixth Era civilization.
Since Thaumaturgy first came about in the Fifth Era, this leads me to think that maybe Belah'dia was built upon the ruins of a Fifth Era nation by the mages that survived the Sixth Umbral Era (and who were possibly the previous citizens of that nation).
Now on the topic of Scholars, it seems like a good number of Arcanist roleplayers give consideration to whether their characters will become Scholars or Summoners, or regard these jobs as the natural progression of an Arcanist character. Lorewise, however, there's not really a reason for a character to think this way.
Arcanists have no history dating back to Allagan Summoners or Nymian Scholars. "The roots of arcanima can be traced back to the esoteric calculations practiced by the people of the south sea isles," says the Arcanist's Guild receptionist, who goes on to say that these mages, wishing to expand their knowledge, came to Limsa Lominsa by sea. This means that Arcanists have only existed in Eorzea for less than 700 years.
It seems like the only reason the Summoner and Scholar jobs get tied into the Arcanist class is that those lost fields of magic took on a similar form to what those south sea mages developed, and contemporary Arcanists have sought to expand their knowledge of arcanima by reviving these practices.
A character who is an Arcanist does not ever have to opt to become a Scholar or Summoner (especially since, as mentioned before, those titles don't really even exist anymore). Alternatively, an Arcanist could reasonably opt to learn both practices and more, since the whole milieu of Arcanists is expanding their knowledge and capabilities through study and practice. They're easily the most eclectic Disciples of Magic.
RE: Scholar questions - TheWizard - 04-19-2014
(04-16-2014, 11:11 AM)Goodfellow Wrote: 1) The job has only recently been reintroduced into Eorzea, so there's no formal apparatus for forcing a scholar to work for anyone in particular. Your scholar can work for anyone he or she chooses, or no one at all. Also, I may be mistaken but I don't think you just learn scholar magic from the fairy, I think it's tied to the fairies. I think.
This is correct. All the job spells you get as a Scholar, with perhaps exclusion of the last one, come from your faerie. By making a pact with the faeries it allowed the Scholars of Nym to act as a sort of proxy for the faerie's power which granted them healing and support magic.
Each faerie is a unique individual with their own personality, memories, and name so if you were to get a faerie of your own via attunement with a Nymian soul crystal, she would most certainly have memory loss due to her 15,000 year dormancy just like Eos does in the Scholar job line and would need time and practice to restore her full abilities.
Just to reiterate, without your faerie a Scholar has NONE of the job spells since the are "borrowed" from the faerie. Job quest spoiler below.
RE: Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-19-2014
Thanks to all who replied. That's interesting that Scholar magicks come from the fairies themselves, I always assumed that the fairies were just sort of like healing versions of a Carbuncle and spells like Adloquium and Succor were advanced Arcanima created by the Nymian Scholars for purposes of protecting the people on the front lines - similar to how a Dragoon's Jumps are designed to pierce dragon armor.
It's also a pretty major point that a Scholar can choose to be independent of the city states due to the art being extinct (unlike a WHM who IS more or less "bound to serve" the Padjal, at least until the ritual in the Level 50 quest is completed).
RE: Scholar questions - TheWizard - 04-20-2014
(04-19-2014, 10:34 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: Thanks to all who replied. That's interesting that Scholar magicks come from the fairies themselves, I always assumed that the fairies were just sort of like healing versions of a Carbuncle and spells like Adloquium and Succor were advanced Arcanima created by the Nymian Scholars for purposes of protecting the people on the front lines - similar to how a Dragoon's Jumps are designed to pierce dragon armor.
It's also a pretty major point that a Scholar can choose to be independent of the city states due to the art being extinct (unlike a WHM who IS more or less "bound to serve" the Padjal, at least until the ritual in the Level 50 quest is completed).
Nym is the only known Fifth Astral Era civilization with no real modern equivalent aside from Limsa Lominsa which just happens to share territory. It would be very easy to be a "free Scholar" and your only real issue is finding a Soul of the Scholar to resonate with. Being able to read some Nymian would also likely be required.
Now I'm going to venture into BLM and WHM territory and this is just what I've gathered.
RE: Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-20-2014
I always knew Shatotto (who many people believe to really be Shantotto from an earlier time period) was a twisted old loony, but I never knew she started this whole War of the Magi stuff. It doesn't help that Ul'dah borders on being a fascist state thanks to the corruption of the Syndicate either...
And your post really confirms also that, even though Twin Adder is the Grand Company she most agrees with and she likely would initially find Conjury appealing, White Magic would NOT be the best choice for Miranda, because like I said she would probably feel sorry for Sylphie, and eventually fall out once she realized that there's more than a few reasons to believe that the Padjal are not as friendly and peaceful as they seem.
Maybe the others were actually on to something when they said that the Arcanist classes would be the best fit...
RE: Scholar questions - Sounsyy - 04-20-2014
(04-20-2014, 12:38 AM)TheWizard Wrote: White Magic, the arcane art of succor, was developed by the Amdapori as an answer to the imbalance created by the advent of Black Magic, the arcane art of destruction.
"Succor" is the magic of the Elementals. The Elementals gifted their power to the Amdapori to balance the pure destructive force of Black Magic. And for a while it worked. Both magicks brought prosperity to the nations until the War of the Magi.
(04-20-2014, 12:38 AM)TheWizard Wrote: However with time they realized that the world will always need healing so they entrusted the ancient art to the Padjal who were sworn to never abuse it.
Now that, thanks to 2.2, we have confirmation lore about Amdapor and its connection to White Magic, I think its safe to assume the re-gifting of Succor to the Gelmorrans could have a good bit to do with the fact that the Gelmorrans were dangerously close to finding the ruins of Amdapor as it was. Just look at how close Issom-Har was to the Lost City. And after the Gelmorrans were allowed to live above ground, it was only a matter of time before they rediscovered the city.
(04-20-2014, 12:38 AM)TheWizard Wrote: Now many people may wonder how White Magic and Conjury differs, well Conjury uses the Elementals as a proxy and borrows from their power to use the myriad elemental magics you get as a Conjurer. However this binds you to their power and if something went awry they could likely revoke said power and leave you defenseless. White Magic, however, isn't linked directly to the Elementals in any way and just relies on the aether of a mage's surroundings so as long as the land has aether, you can use it.
Conjury was taught to the Gelmorrans by the Moogles a little over 500 years ago. Conjurers, through meditation, draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings and then channel that aether through a wand or cane made of unworked wood until the desired spell manifests.
It does not use Elementals as a proxy any more than Black or White Magic does. The Elementals are the aether of Nature. So when Conjurers draw upon the aether surrounding them, yes, technically they are drawing aether from the Elementals, but the Elementals do not seem to have any say in the matter. Were this the case and Elementals could flick off magic like a switch, there would be no need to flood the world in 5AE. Likewise, when fighting corrupted Elementals in the ARR CNJ quests, your own mastery over that element is not affected. There are plenty of examples in 1.0 where CNJs stand up against Elementals using Conjury. "Beckon of the Elementals" 1.0 MSQ comes to mind, as well as "The Chorus of Cataclysm" 1.0 WHM quest.
The difference between Conjury and White Magic is, one is Succor, one isn't. Conjury is manipulation of Nature's aether. White Magic is Succor - healing, protection. Conjury was created because the Gelmorrans needed a way to communicate with the Elementals of the Twelveswood to try to negotiate the right to live within the forest. By learning to manipulate Nature, the Gelmorrans learned to hear and understand Nature. With meditation, the Gelmorrans began to hear the call of the Elementals. The Elementals birthed a new race of Man from the wombs of these first select Hearers. So came the Padjal into existence. These natural born Hearers were tasked as mediators between Man and Elemental and were tasked with upholding the Pact of Gelmorra.
(04-20-2014, 12:38 AM)TheWizard Wrote: So how would you become an independent White Mage?
I agree one of the best ways would probably be to find a soulstone in Amdapor. However, having the power of Succor gifted to you is not unheard of. The only stated requirement of a White Mage is someone who is righteous and pure of heart and intention. This just happens to be limited in the game world to the Padjal (because they were born for this very purpose) and your player character who is blessed by Hydaelyn. That doesn't mean there can't be other righteous folk out there.
As for Elementals becoming irate, ARR tells us that the Elementals were considerably weakened by the Calamity and can no longer fend for themselves, much less police Succor. But were they capable, leaving the Twelveswood would not stop them. The Elementals exist everywhere, not just in the Wood.
Here is some interesting text on the subject:
RE: Scholar questions - Spiritual Machine - 04-20-2014
I was going to post some things with regard to the origins and nature of Conjury and White Magic, but Sounsyy did it much better and gave way more information than I actually knew.
I'll add that through conversations with E-Sumi-Yan, it is stressed that much of a Conjurer's training goes into better understanding the elements that one is capable of manipulating, in order to both better respect the nature of ones duty as a Conjurer, and to improve ones ability to draw upon those elements.
Indeed, E-Sumi-Yan says that "conjury is not the sole province of the conjurer." That's because you're essentially trained to be a Hearer in some measure as well by the guild, after you vow to serve nature and the will of the Elementals.
So there are certain expectations made of a student of Conjury, right off the bat, that are unique to other guilds. But judging from the fact that your character's still an adventurer and not a Gridanian Hearer by the end of their training, I don't think those vows are particularly binding.
(04-20-2014, 04:17 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: I always knew Shatotto (who many people believe to really be Shantotto from an earlier time period) was a twisted old loony, but I never knew she started this whole War of the Magi stuff. It doesn't help that Ul'dah borders on being a fascist state thanks to the corruption of the Syndicate either...
And your post really confirms also that, even though Twin Adder is the Grand Company she most agrees with and she likely would initially find Conjury appealing, White Magic would NOT be the best choice for Miranda, because like I said she would probably feel sorry for Sylphie, and eventually fall out once she realized that there's more than a few reasons to believe that the Padjal are not as friendly and peaceful as they seem.
Maybe the others were actually on to something when they said that the Arcanist classes would be the best fit...
I don't think it's indicated that Shatotto started that war. She was more a pioneer in the art of aetherial manipulation, wasn't she? It was ultimately the abuse of the craft she developed that led to its ill results.
Strange to count Ul'dah's politics as a mark against Thaumaturgy, as they are only tangentially related to one another.
Also, doesn't Sylphie's story turn out very well at the end with the help of the Padjal? And is it so bad to discover that Padjal are people as well, and suffer moments of weakness and fallibility?
I suppose if this is about choosing a magical discipline for a character to pursue, minor trifles of politics and disagreements in practice only seem relevant if the character's intent is to remain a devotee to the guild and home nation. But as you said before, your character is casting their lot in with the Scions, so why do these issues matter? If anything, they're all the more reason to do so.