+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: The Stigma (/showthread.php?tid=5862)
The Stigma - C'kayah Polaali - 12-18-2013
I've been reading the "seeking Miqo'te females" thread with some interest as its developed. One thing that really stood out to me - I've been thinking about this a lot lately for other reasons - is the reactions people have been having to it when they assume that it's about ERP. Now, I don't really want to clog up R'mah's thread with a discussion of ERP, but it seems like a good time to split that off into its own thread. Searching the forums, I see this isn't the first time someone's started a conversation about ERP and people's reaction to it, but the last one was long enough ago that I'm going to just start a new one instead of necroing the old.
Let me start with a confession, 'cos it's germaine to the topic: I ERP. I haven't ERPed in Final Fantasy, but I have ERPed a few times in games in the past. Does that make me a bad person? A dirty pervert? I don't think so, but you'll have to make your own decisions there. I'm making this confession as an experiment, because of something I think is pretty common in the RP community - despite my having engaged in ERP in the past, I've never come out and publicly admitted that I do so. Why? Probably because of the general stigma that seems to be associated with ERP.
So what does this mean in my case? Those of you who know me know that I describe myself as a role-play whore. I've role-played for decades. I'm an AmberMush alumni, for any of you who remember AmberMush. Pretty much my entire RP history in gaming has been at least partially an attempt to recapture the depth and intensity of some of the AmberMush stories, and I typically prefer RP to any other activity in any MMO I play. While I like all kinds of role-play, I prefer heavily character-driver role-play. I love morally ambiguous, villainous, and even evil role-play. I love romantic role-play. Complex stories with a surplus of intensity are my meat and potatoes. So when I say that I ERP and that I've engaged in ERP a few times in games in the past, put that into the context of my role-play as a whole. Why am I doing this? Consider it an experiment. It's pretty widely assumed that a huge portion of the role-play community engages in ERP at some time or other, but just never publicly admits it. Probably for the same reasons that I've never admitted it in the past. So for this game, this time around, I'm going to come at it from the other direction and just flat out say that I include ERP in the types of RP that I do.
With that out of the way, let's talk about this terrible stigma associated with ERP, and why a lot of people react the way they do. Look at the "seeking Miqo'te females" thread. It's pretty clear from the get-go that the extras M'rah was asking for were not simply to fulfill an ERP fantasy, but that they were to be used in a story about what was obviously a very twisted Nunh and the status of slavery in Final Fantasy. Despite this, so many of the responses include some sort of ERP disclaimer. I'm not saying this to try and single out anyone, nor to cast any sort of blame on anyone - if blame were to be cast, I'd certainly be guilty of posting my fair share of "blah blah, oh, by the way, I think ERP is fine so long as it's kept private, and I'm not personally interested" replies to OOC comments over the years. Instead, I'm mainly just interested in why ERP is such a hot button topic. Hot enough that the fact that M'rah's arc involves slavery seems less controversial than the impression that it might involve ERP.
I think probably the obvious top of the button is probably the squick factor. Some people don't care for sex scenes in their RP or their books or their movies. Nothing wrong with that. I, personally, won't watch the "Saw" movies because I simply don't want to put those images in my head. Other people get squicked out for different reasons. A big one used to be the "man factor" - maybe it still is, I don't know. You know: the old ha-ha-only-serious joke about MMORPG standing for "Many Men Online Role Playing Girls". A lot of men get squicked out at the idea that their character's slender leman is really "le man". Yet many of those same people will happily read novels with fairly explicit sex scenes without feeling uncomfortable at all. This is the "author factor" that people talk about: Is Neuromancer squicky because William Gibson wrote the character of Molly?
I think another big part of the hot button is what I like to call the "rocks factor". You know. "I'm fine with good role-players ERPing, but most ERPers are only doing it to get their rocks off." Which is a bit of an odd thing to say because, for me personally, everything I do in RP gets my rocks off. Political RP. Conflict. Romance. Espionage. Theft. In Star Trek Online I played a character that engaged in black market slave trading and sold Orion knock offs of Cardassian copies of obsolete Klingon agonizers in bulk. And that got my rocks off. Writing the tail end of "A Midnight Walk" with Tobias got my rocks off. It's all thrilling. That's why I RP. And you know what? The same goes for everyone. Roleplayers role-play because they like it. It's satisfying. It's pleasurable. It gets their rocks off. Why, then, is ERP considered differently? Why is it good and admirable to get your rocks off doing an intense, involved arc about conflict while it's bad and squicky to get your rocks off doing an intense, involved RP that includes ERP?
RE: The Stigma - LiadansWhisper - 12-18-2013
I've tried to understand for a while now why some people care just sooooo much about what other people are doing, but I still don't get it, tbh.
I actually don't much care what someone is doing behind the computer screen (though, seriously, don't share that info with me, pls!). Â I care about the story, and stories can lead anywhere.
As long as everyone involved in the RP is happy, and no actual RL laws are being broken (i.e. minors!), I really don't see how it's anyone else's business.
RE: The Stigma - Yloise - 12-18-2013
I think what C'kayah is getting at it is not necessarily sex behind ERP. I don't go all the way with folks, because I have fun in other ways with drama and intrigue. I get more pleased with myself and giggle insanely (to my family's confusion) at times at my reaction and other's situations. It has nothing to do with arousal but more with the ways we like to create puzzles for ourselves. Thats what I love about RP.
RE: The Stigma - raindrops - 12-18-2013
...okay, so either the term 'get your rocks off' means something entirely different in the UK than it does wherever you are or you are admitting to some very odd things.
That said, ERP is fine as long as it's kept private. And honestly I don't see where this stigma is, beyond the fact that people would rather it be kept private to allow younger players to participate and because some people really don't want to see that shit and should be allowed to avoid it.
RE: The Stigma - Rinh Hallani - 12-18-2013
(12-18-2013, 05:48 PM)raindrops Wrote: That said, ERP is fine as long as it's kept private. And honestly I don't see where this stigma is, beyond the fact that people would rather it be kept private to allow younger players to participate and because some people really don't want to see that shit and should be allowed to avoid it.
Sums it up for me.
RE: The Stigma - Fenrir - 12-18-2013
The stigma comes from the roleplayers we've all run into. The ones who want nothing more than to get their character into another character's pants. The ones who ruin plots and scenes because they can't do anything without focusing on romance or sex. I've seen whole storylines get jacked by these sorts of people, and you know what the majority of those types do when asked to tone it down? They get defensive, they whine, they claim they've done nothing wrong. Notice I said majority, not all.
And really it's just starting to come off like ERPers have a persecution complex. Have fun ERPing. I don't care. No one cares. Literally no one cares. People get grumpy about it because there's hardly any reason to bring it up, but somehow it keeps being brought up. I can go my entire day without hearing about your ERP. There's also the fact that there are dedicated communities out there for this sort of thing, where you can get in contact with such like-minded people.
I've not seen anyone come to these forums posting really dark, bloody, stomach-churning violence. I've written two little drabbles, and people die in both, but I kept their deaths lights. I tried to make sure no one would be put off by it.
But I love dark RP. I love horror. I like violence, I like seediness, all that fun stuff, but most of the people I RP with don't appreciate that. I wrote a story once of one of my characters dousing some poor schmuck with gasoline and lighting them afire. I was playing a yakuza at the time. Yakuza are some crazy assholes.
The response wasn't great. Did I get pissy? No, I made a note of it and I cut down on the content I presented that group with. People have hang-ups. I will question them, but they're those people's hang-ups at the end of the day, and I'd rather respect their wishes not to be exposed to shit they dislike than alienate or make them uncomfortable.
RE: The Stigma - Fenrir - 12-18-2013
double post wee.
y i no can baleet
RE: The Stigma - Whittledown - 12-18-2013
The 'if it's in private' thing that always attends this is such an odd thing to say to me. It's not like this is a different rule than the vast majority of people have in real life. Sex is a part of life, you just don't do it in the street.Â
I have no problem with ERP just as I have no problem with non-ERP.Â
There is a stigma because there is an assumption in many people that people who engage in ERP only engage in ERP. And that's just blatantly false.
RE: The Stigma - C'kayah Polaali - 12-18-2013
(12-18-2013, 05:59 PM)Whittledown Wrote: There is a stigma because there is an assumption in many people that people who engage in ERP only engage in ERP. And that's just blatantly false.It's an oddball assumption, too.
I mean, most people who play MMOs to the endgame don't roleplay but do raid, but we don't make the assumption that people who raid don't RP...
(12-18-2013, 05:48 PM)raindrops Wrote: ...okay, so either the term 'get your rocks off' means something entirely different in the UK than it does wherever you are or you are admitting to some very odd things.Granted, I'm stretching the metaphor quite a bit...Â
RE: The Stigma - raindrops - 12-18-2013
(12-18-2013, 05:59 PM)Whittledown Wrote: The 'if it's in private' thing that always attends this is such an odd thing to say to me. It's not like this is a different rule than the vast majority of people have in real life. Sex is a part of life, you just don't do it in the street.Â
Unfortunately, it does need to be said, even if it seems like it shouldn't. There are people who don't understand this - there were quite a few on Gilgamesh, though I've yet to run into any on Balmung. They are the ones who any negative feelings about ERP are aimed at, both because of their complete disregard for the comfort of others (and, again, for the law, since they're doing this in the open where minors can see it) and also because they become, for a lot of people, the 'face' of RP in general.
They attract trolls to all RPers because people respond to RPers from then on with the same amount of care for people's comfort as they saw them displaying.
RE: The Stigma - Neka - 12-18-2013
I suppose I should preface this by saying I am the current leader of an MRP themed LS/FC so my opinion on the subject is quite biased. I will also state this is my opinion and I have not read through the thread and apologize if I restate something someone else has stated more eloquently.Â
However, disclaimer's out of the way, and this will likely be long because I am terrible at keeping things short : It's the subject that's often debated in every MMO that I have currently encountered.
"ERP" to me is generally divided in two basic categories. There are those who wish to log in and simply ERP with each other for no purpose other than the scene in question or in layman's terms "Short term RP". To me I generally consider this "cybering" as the sole purpose of it is short non-lasting and often only for the benefit of the people behind the computers for sexual stimulation. It's not -always- the case, but in my experience 9/10 people who practice this are only doing it in place of generic porn.
Then there's the second category: those like myself who see life as not being G-rated and figure that their characters lives should also not be g-rated. Regardless whether people will admit it or not, sex has a huge impact on one's mood due to the endorphins released and the events leading up to the act. There's a huge difference between going out to a bar and getting plastered only to wake up next to someone you thought you'd never talk to much less wake up with the next morning and being secretly madly in love with someone only to finally have them notice you and take you out to dinner and things escalate from there. Â
The latter is mostly what I'm going to discuss as the former I prefer to ignore it's existence due to bad past experiences with this particular group.Â
From a character perspective the two above scenarios can play out and affect the character in different ways. It leads to questions, drama, and more importantly -character-. The choices we make in real life tend to shape who we are as people and as such in my opinion it is the only way to shape a character's life. I, like many people, start with a simplistic idea only to build on it through people I meet in RP. Occasionally, like anyone else, I'll have an idea for a story or scene that shaped was significant to the character's history/personality but before they encountered anyone in the game world, however the bulk of my quirks are shaped by the people I associate with. If my character were to be intimate with someone else's character there's always context just like the real world.Â
I think the stigma comes down to the videos or the idea of people playing MMO's for porn instead of the MMO. I think it's fair to say there is more than enough fan art and other forum communities to support this idea. I've learned to look at gaming communities much like high school. Regardless of the actual age of the players, maturity will always vary. Through maturity one broadens their perspective on matters such as sex and context of it all. The immature typically follow the crowd and speak on ignorance because it's considered the "cool" thing to do. I have been on PVE based servers where I have "confessed" to being one of those "faggity role-players" they made fun of all day. I have been teased for it yet on the flip side with full focused RP servers the raider in me has been teased by RPers as being elitist. Players who engage in both aspects of a game or more so in both aspects of RP (Mature and Vanilla) run the risk of being tortured by others who also play said game.Â
The bottom line is generally it's ignorance and a lack of respect for people's play styles both in game and in RP. Life is too short to be held back by people who aren't open-minded enough to in the least respect your choice of entertainment.Â
As an additive on the subject of minors as it does pop up every time there is an ERP discussion, The game is rated T for teen. There is an ESRB content warning essentially absolving SE from responsibility for what players say and do. While I am a full supporter of parents actually parenting their kids instead of letting videogames and TV parent for them, I think it's unfair to think that one who engages in activities such as ERP will not come across a minor at least once in their role-play "career".
The truth of the matter is that forum communities dedicated to such discussion are often based on the honor system. Human beings as a whole unfortunately have mastered the art of lying. Many of these websites have a simple question asking if they are over the age of 18 or 21 in some countries. By simply pressing "Yes" you gain access to their registration. There is no sign up fee, nor is there a drivers license check. Even with said information a minor could easily have borrowed mommy or daddy's credit card and license and pretend they are older. Gaming communities simply do not and will never have the resources to keep minors out of the mature circle and to hold them responsible for a parents lack of judgement (ie parenting) is simply unrealistic and unfair to everyone who uses the internet.Â
/2c
RE: The Stigma - ArmachiA - 12-18-2013
The big stigma, that someone said before, is that when you admit you ERP everyone assumes that's all you do. And from a non-RPers perspective, all RPers are also ERPers. These two things make it so you never, EVER admit you ERP and more serious RPers will do ANYTHING to keep that reputation intact.
And it's true. Once you admit you ERP, a lot of other RPers will look down on you a bit, because that stigma is there. That fear is there that everyone on the outside will think that's all we do. We are very careful to guard our reputations.
That being said, I don't care in the least if a Roleplayer ERPs. At all. It doesn't make me look down on them just for that. ERP can be, like anything else, explorative for the character and can help them grow. And if the two (Or more ;o) parties are comfortable, who cares? It's their 15 dollars. Whatever.
What I do care about are the following:
~ ERPing in a channel everyone can see. Not a MT, but just doing it up in /say. Our first day in FFXIV 1.0 my fiance caught some people ERPing in /say. DAY ONE. Come on. If it gets a little racey, take it to /party.
~ Blatant attempts for ERP.... and nothing else. Many, many times (Even in this game) I've had people talk to my character in an attempt to just engage in ERP. I've had people get mad at me personally for not engaging in a romance fast enough or complain I'm OOCing because even though my character is a promiscuous (Loki) I won't ERP at the drop of a hat. Assuming I will ERP because my character has been around the block is a no-no. Making people uncomfortable because you want to get your jollies off is a no-no.
And that's really it. The first is just horrifying and the last is really in bad taste. I get some people want to be more erotic with their RP and that's fine, but all the gory details to yourself.
Romance can be a wonderful learning experience for your characters - I have done relationship RP in the past and my characters are forging relationships right now in the present. I currently have a character who is navigating through her first experiences with relationships and dating and she talks about love and sex in her journal so it's not like I'm against it, but... you know... keep it classy.
RE: The Stigma - LiadansWhisper - 12-18-2013
@Arma: I liken it to the question, "Do I really want to see someone getting down and dirty on the street?"*
The answer to that is a decided, "No!"
That's honestly it. Â It's just rude, and no one wants to see it. Â And if you're (Note: General "You") that big of an exhibitionist, then there are other venues you can use to scratch that metaphorical itch.Â
*Note: This actually happens during Mardi Gras in New Orleans. I'm from Louisiana, I've been to Mardi Gras. Â I don't go to the French Quarter anymore because of stuff like that. :-P
RE: The Stigma - belderiver - 12-18-2013
Ugh, do we really have to keep having this conversation? Everyone has their own opinion about it and most of the people who are engaging in any bickering to begin with aren't listening to the other side anyhow.
RE: The Stigma - C'kayah Polaali - 12-18-2013
(12-18-2013, 08:23 PM)belderiver Wrote: Ugh, do we really have to keep having this conversation? Everyone has their own opinion about it and most of the people who are engaging in any bickering to begin with aren't listening to the other side anyhow.Well, I suppose the alternative is to not talk about the elephant that keeps walking into the room...