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A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Printable Version

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A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Eorn Palamo - 10-28-2013

Hi there, my first post to the forums, but the very reason I joined in the first place!

On to the topic at hand, and before I get into detail about it, there are storyline spoilers for BLMs that follow.

I really don't know terribly much about the lore except from what I've gleaned in game and a bit of reading here and there.  However, in game, as a BLM, my story says that we're not looked on kindly.  It's a bit of a stigma.

Well that makes sense, 'black magic' never really did have a good ring to it.  Except that, well, there was that one in the End of an Era video, waging war.  Was he looked on poorly but allowed in because of the need of the many outweighing what he was?

My question is really that how are BLMs (and from what I've heard, though not seen yet, pretty much all jobs are a rare recurrence with history) perceived in RP / the accepted RP story?  Are they feared, despised?  Or is it just a job?  Obviously my character isn't the only PC one, so that part of the storyline doesn't matter.  But should my character be protective of knowing he's more than a THM, or if he's found out as a BLM it's 'Eh, no biggie.'

At some point the story I've been playing and the RP community must differ just based on how many of each class the stories indicate there is versus the reality of how many there are.  But how does that affect their perceptions, what their classes have done in the past and how they're treated because of it?

At this point my question specializes on black mages, but I'm curious about how it is for all classes.

Also if there was a better place to put this question, I apologize, as well as for the length of the question.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Olofantur - 10-28-2013

Hello Eorn,

An interesting topic, i'm going to break it down into a few small chunks and point out that perceptions are of course a personal things, not everyone agrees with me, and cultural/societal upbringings would of course provide a different context for each person. Warning, I will be going into slight spoilers of WHM/BLM/SUM/SCH lore as some of them touch on similar themes.

Quote:However, in game, as a BLM, my story says that we're not looked on kindly. It's a bit of a stigma. Well that makes sense, 'black magic' never really did have a good ring to it.

The stigma towards Black Magic comes from a number of sources, I would first point to the ancient "Mage Wars" talked about in the Scholar opening (lvl30) quest, as well as White Mage, to surmise, (according to the scholar quest) some 15 centuries ago, a war of magic users erupted, and the power they waged was mighty. Black mages and White mages both have moments in their quest line that mention how their magic draws from the land and can leave it barren. (Some hints towards this in mentions of Thanalans Era-lost vibrancy, and the burying of Sil'dih.)

A stigma can also be an evolution of the perception of Thaumaturgy, while in 2.0 the group is some what neutered of its moral ambiguity, at least in 1.0 the organization was clearly a gray area. For example during you're training you are sent across Eorzea to sell funeral rights to various people, and a Lalafell thaumaturge in training who is also setting upon the trial does not scruple to both sabotage you and she also uses some under handed tactics to see her mission done. I think, particularly outside of Ul'dah, agents of the Ossuary would not be treated as "welcomed guests" as much as some might have you believe.

You could also touch on the power. Its been said many different ways in many different scenes, but most people don't distinguish between "Light" and "Dark" power when it's so grand, or even more so they don't distinguish between a Good person with a seemingly Dark power and the reverse. They just see people with too much power running around doing what ever they want and damn the consequences. This also runs into what it looks like. If we assume that most outsiders don't comprehend the technical differences of Aether manipulation, you could point towards the fact that a Voidsent, during the Thaumaturgy quest line is the closest example of Blackmagic you see up to that point... A demon in a jar, not the best harbinger for good intentions (Eh, Hoenheim?)

Quote:Except that, well, there was that one in the End of an Era video, waging war. Was he looked on poorly but allowed in because of the need of the many outweighing what he was?

Adventurers had proved themselves over a long stretch of time and great tribulations during 1.0 (IC) the group you see in the "End of an Era" video are arguably the "warriors of light" (yes yes, much discussion on this, not the point at the moment.) and had worked a great deal to aid Eorzea before the battle took place. I imagine the group that had bested Primals, and put down the White Raven had earned an immense amount of, if not respect, then at least acknowledgment. That and the leaders of each faction had not scrupled to utilize their seedier brethren in the fight for Eorzea up to that point anyways. It was a last ditch effort, no punches, how ever dirty, were going to be pulled.

Quote:My question is really that how are BLMs (and from what I've heard, though not seen yet, pretty much all jobs are a rare recurrence with history) perceived in RP / the accepted RP story? Are they feared, despised?

I made a point in character of never mentioning my capacity as a Blackmage, though it does exist. Some of those i've met have been scorned, other are warily dealt with, but rarely (outside of scholarly organizations) treated as openly as some of the more "goodly" peoples. As far as running into "Other Black Mages" I am usually (being interested in Aether manipulation) interested in hearing that story, but am often cautious as to their validity and mental stability. An Eras old Magic practitioner would certainly garner some attention, in character I wonder if some Thaumaturge may not just be puffing themselves up. If their role is proven, i'm cautious...

Quote:But should my character be protective of knowing he's more than a THM, or if he's found out as a BLM it's 'Eh, no biggie.'

I've even made a point of distancing myself from the Ossuary in character, Death obsessed, and potentially under the influence of monetarists, I try to make a point of explaining that I only interact with them so far as using them as a resource. Sadly this isn't something that has been explored in 2.0 nearly as much as I should like, it seems the Syndicates role has been down played since I met the up and coming in 1.0. I wouldn't go about screaming to the high heavens of your Black Magic also in part because they may relate you to Dalamunds fall and the Calamity.

Quote:but I'm curious about how it is for all classes.

I make an effort to not outright judge the title of the person, but the context of how it came about. For example, while I do use "Black Mage" as a title in character, I don't strictly adhere to the story line applied during the game. I use the similar vein, lost knowledge, unspeakable act, beast men, ritual, but i've diverged myself enough that with confidence I could have some one stick to the story line and not say "Hey, I met the same Amalj'aa!". I don't use the other jobs, IC, only touch on using a few of the classes, but I try to treat them along the same lines.

I hope that wall of rambling thought provides at least a little information you might find of use. Feel free to dissect it and ask for further clarification, I just enjoy rambling, especially about Magic.

EDIT:: just went back and corrected a few notes.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Ildur - 10-28-2013

If the game itself allows you to mechanically be a class/job/race/member of a faction, you have all the right in the world to use that in your roleplay. The problem with the Jobs is that, as you said, most of them are introduced as being incredibly rare. Roleplayers have to come with a handwave for why every Player Character can be a "very rare" White Mage (or whatever Job) despite of what the lore says. My personal take is that the jobs have been reintroduced into Eorzea for some time now, but not terribly long. Since all (or at least most) of the Job and Class quests exist in their own vacuum, not interacting at all with the main storyline (except for the odd cameo, like in the Summoner's last quest), it is safe to assume that, for example, the Padjal have been accepting and training new White Mages for a while. The same applies to everything else. Some Jobs need more thinking about how your character came to be one, but they are all perfectly doable.

How they are treated during roleplay depends on each player and character. Some people might decide that you absolutely cannot be <insert Job here> because the lore states that they are extremely rare or dead. Others might decide that it's alright as long as your personal backstory isn't a copy-paste from the storyline presented in the game itself. Others might not care either way.
If the Black Mage storyline states that they are feared, then chances are other player characters will react according to lore. Or not. Again, it's something that depends a lot and you should probably not worry much about what their reaction will be.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - K'dath - 10-28-2013

They've pretty much got it covered. I'd personally discount the fact that Jobs are a 'rare' thing since you see enemy humanoids strutting around lobbing fireballs at you and your mates. They've clearly come to power by some alternate means.

That being said, alternate interpretations of events that are not elaborated upon objectively are always good places to derive a 'rare' power source/gift from. Just because an NPC says 'Oh yeah, there's like, one Black Mage in all of Eorzea and he's evil,' doesn't make it true. NPCs have a capacity to be unreliable narrators.

BUT if you go the path of free-form interpretation, it's always in your best interest to research. Lots and lots of research. Because people will doubt you and question you, and needle you about your choice to not be conventional or simple. And, assuming that bothers you, you'll need to justify your interpretation with appropriate lore related history, facts, and theories.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Leomoon - 10-28-2013

Black mages are never really had bad guys, they just wield a destructive power as appose to White magic where its more of a healing force. One FF I am playing though IV on the DS has them all in a study group. I am not huge on XIV's lore or anything but as I see it, they would just be another school of magic much like in Elder scrolls, yes there are bad magics but we as players can pick if we want to take them or not.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - LiadansWhisper - 10-28-2013

(10-28-2013, 08:59 PM)Leomoon Wrote: Black mages are never really had bad guys, they just wield a destructive power as appose to White magic where its more of a healing force. One FF I am playing though IV on the DS has them all in a study group. I am not huge on XIV's lore or anything but as I see it, they would just be another school of magic much like in Elder scrolls, yes there are bad magics but we as players can pick if we want to take them or not.

You can't really take into account other games when speaking about XIV and the lore.  There are some changes.

Black Magic is destructive, but so is White Magic (according to the White Mage quest).  And as Olo pointed out, both draw from the Aether of the world (the literal life force).  At one point, the conflict between Black and White Mages nearly destroyed the world (and ushered in an Umbral Age).  White Mages are much, much more restricted now, with Conjurers themselves being restricted as to which parts of Succor (the White Magic) they can access by the Elementals.  But Ul'dah is home to the Thaumaturge guild, which are basically less-powerful Black Mages from what I've seen.  And as Olo also pointed out, some of the issues with Thalnalan's environment may be tied to this fact.

It also isn't a question of whether the magic is actually evil, but how it is perceived by other people.  And given the destructive power inherent in Black Magic, it could very well be perceived as evil by those not intimately familiar with the the art.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Olofantur - 10-28-2013

(10-28-2013, 09:10 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 08:59 PM)Leomoon Wrote: Black mages are never really had bad guys, they just wield a destructive power as appose to White magic where its more of a healing force. One FF I am playing though IV on the DS has them all in a study group. I am not huge on XIV's lore or anything but as I see it, they would just be another school of magic much like in Elder scrolls, yes there are bad magics but we as players can pick if we want to take them or not.

You can't really take into account other games when speaking about XIV and the lore.  There are some changes.

Black Magic is destructive, but so is White Magic (according to the White Mage quest).  And as Olo pointed out, both draw from the Aether of the world (the literal life force).  At one point, the conflict between Black and White Mages nearly destroyed the world (and ushered in an Umbral Age).  White Mages are much, much more restricted now, with Conjurers themselves being restricted as to which parts of Succor (the White Magic) they can access by the Elementals.  But Ul'dah is home to the Thaumaturge guild, which are basically less-powerful Black Mages from what I've seen.  And as Olo also pointed out, some of the issues with Thalnalan's environment may be tied to this fact.

It also isn't a question of whether the magic is actually evil, but how it is perceived by other people.  And given the destructive power inherent in Black Magic, it could very well be perceived as evil by those not intimately familiar with the the art.

To expand on Liadans point about Thaumaturgy in Ul'dah

The home of the Black Mage tutor (or at least his go between) in 1.0 the Sacrarium, has been closed as of 2.0 (perhaps some calamity?) and during the 1.0 quest line, the guild receptionist is extremely skeptical of any claims to the lost gem of Shantotto. She is surprised by Lalais appearance let alone the master who comes to teach you, being that he has escaped from a deep jail for a heinous crime.

As further evidence of their taboo nature, even the beast tribe representatives who teach you the art are shunned and in one case exiled from their homelands for the practice.

To touch on the idea of "lobbing fireballs" Thaumaturgy is the art of manipulating ones own Aether, which has set limits, any one with enough talent can perfect Fire, Frost or Thunder. That is the Danger of the Blackmage, it is checked by no inherent limitation, its power (like White Mages) is subject to the whims of the user.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Ildur - 10-29-2013

Olofantur Wrote:The home of the Black Mage tutor (or at least his go between) in 1.0 the Sacrarium, has been closed as of 2.0 (perhaps some calamity?)
(...)

There's an NPC out of the Sacrarium that tells you why you can't go in: the Calamity hit it quite hard and it is still undergoing repairs. I haven't seen any further details about that fact.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Qhora Bajihri - 10-29-2013

What I figure is the way that "popular culture" views your class and the way "adventurer culture" views your class are probably going to be vastly different. The NPCs and regular citizens aren't going to see you the same way your fellow rare lunatics see you. Now if you're playing an NPC/regular citizen intentionally, it's probably nice to know those things to know who to cross to the opposite side of the street from when you see them walking your way. Otherwise, that's probably just your weird buddy who sets things on fire, which seems to be the way the CG gang sees each other.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Olofantur - 10-29-2013

(10-29-2013, 02:16 AM)Ildur Wrote: There's an NPC out of the Sacrarium that tells you why you can't go in: the Calamity hit it quite hard and it is still undergoing repairs. I haven't seen any further details about that fact.

Yes, I was hoping/Implying that along with the Calamity perhaps something darker is occurring (and I should have clarified as much). Considering the other overhauls and rebuilds I have a hard time believing that in Ul'dah, the height of civilization in Eorzea, they're having an issue with repairing the structure. Missing tomes? dark secrets I could understand, and dearly hope a story comes to light around it.

Speculation of course, but I do so love to indulge.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Sophia_Grave - 10-29-2013

I don't have experience with Black Mages, but the Warrior questline seemed to be all about the problems they face in controlling their rage. I don't want to spoil anything, but supposedly, losing your mind by using Warriors' techniques is a very real threat. The common people seemed to fear Warriors, although they were appreciative of the help. It was almost like having a leashed monster to defend against other monsters; there's some risk involved that you'll see when or if you chose to do that questline. I thought it was an interesting dynamic. The Warrior has this internal struggle that he willingly subjects himself to, only to be seen as a monster to the very people he sets out to protect.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - synaesthetic - 10-29-2013

I am an alleged roleplayer, so take this as you will.

My character, Aeriyn, is a black mage, but she's smart enough to know what she is isn't really well-thought-of (and sometimes feared for their power), so she just doesn't tell people she's a black mage. Most average folk wouldn't know the difference from Fire III and Flare, so she only has to hide her "forbidden black" techniques from learned individuals who would recognize the subtle differences between thaumaturgy and true black magic.

Aeriyn's access to black magic came through an aetherial accident that happened during the Battle of Cartenau, a sort of Noodle Incident involving corrupted aether, a Dalamud fragment, an exploding Garlean magitek armor and the weird kitty herself. Before this incident that changed her physical appearance and wrecked her memory, altered her personality and left her... strange.

RE: A Question on Perceptions of Classes. (Spoilers) - Kismet - 10-30-2013

(10-29-2013, 09:39 AM)Apl_J Wrote: I don't have experience with Black Mages, but the Warrior questline seemed to be all about the problems they face in controlling their rage. I don't want to spoil anything, but supposedly, losing your mind by using Warriors' techniques is a very real threat. The common people seemed to fear Warriors, although they were appreciative of the help. It was almost like having a leashed monster to defend against other monsters; there's some risk involved that you'll see when or if you chose to do that questline. I thought it was an interesting dynamic. The Warrior has this internal struggle that he willingly subjects himself to, only to be seen as a monster to the very people he sets out to protect.

That sounds incredibly awesome, mainly because one of my characters has a backstory that is supposed be exactly all of that. I've been thinking of making her a Warrior for quite a while (maybe not the actual job itself, but possibly just give her the skills of one), but this really inspires me to go and explore their story now.