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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Rolling Systems in RP (/showthread.php?tid=20239)
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - zaviire - 08-03-2017
I like roll systems in RP, but I hate straight-rolls where it's basically a coin toss, or along the lines of "oh, well I rolled higher than you, so I win." Roll systems make things interesting because they're reasonably unpredictable and they force both players and DMs to cope with the possibility that their plans won't always work out the way they want -- there will be hiccups and snags along the way. But the sorts of systems I've seen have either been so simple that I personally feel like the purpose of having a system to begin with is kind of defeated, or so complex that I couldn't reasonably expect anyone to even bother (because I, as a player OR a DM, don't want to bother; while I do want to get into tabletop at some point, I don't really want to put D&D into my FFXIV).
For me, the perfect roll system is quick to pick up and easy to adapt, but still goes deep enough that I can get an idea of what kind of skills, specialties, and weaknesses a character has at a glance. So I guess that means it's important for me to have something to glance at -- I know not everyone likes character sheets but I come from Tumblr and forum RP, where everyone's character profiles and sheets are not only laid out for everyone to see, but everyone who wants to RP with you is expected to read them. But it made it a lot easier for people who wanted to run plots to get a feel for what kinds of characters they were dealing with.
I also like roll systems because in my personal experience, if you give someone the freedom to choose, people will almost always choose to have their character succeed no matter what they say. And I hate that, because personally... Watching or playing with people who always gotta win isn't very much fun, especially if that success is unconditional.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Firefly - 08-05-2017
Obviously, it's not as simple as this (exceptions to everything), but here's my take on roll-systems and free-form systems for Combat RP:
Both are absolutely fine, valid, and should, ideally, be used together.
Ideally, combatants in an RP fight should pay great attention to their (and definitely their adversary's) character's actions, strengths, weaknesses, and strategy; with these traits/decisions forming the basis of the outcomes of the fight. They should at most be supplemented by rolls (ie. success/failure is not decided by them), to simulate mistakes, circumstance, and the general chaos of combat.
Of course, this takes a lot of trust between players, and for them to both be on the same page, which brings me onto the true reason for the divided opinions on rolling/RNG-RP:
Combat RP is one of those things that everyone likes to do, but don't put enough work into.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing -- it's unreasonable to expect people to go deep and research the intricacies of fighting for the sake of playing pretend on the internet; much like how it's unreasonable to expect people to go deep and research the intricacies of mental/physical disorders etc. -- but its necessary to acknowledge/recognise this when talking about the strengths/weaknesses of Combat Resolution Systems in RP, as it highlights the demographic you'll exclude by going one direction or the other.
Competent combat is an incredibly technical (but sometimes simple) art that requires an innate, instinctual, subconcious understanding of biomechanics and basic physics to do. There is a huge divide between a trained (MMA, boxer, fencer, etc.) and untrained (average joe bar brawler) fighter, and that divide is the aforementioned technical knowledge; and the nerves/experience to apply it under stress/pressure.
Unfortunately, the huge problems are:
- To the untrained eye, fights are just fights; they can't exactly pick out the technical intricacies of someone's movements/gameplan
- Nobody gives a shit about how Holly Holm beat the shit out of Ronda Rousey; just that she did
- Text is an incredibly difficult medium to portray close-combat, when trying to avoid using technical terms (the average RPer would have no idea on what an 'absetzen' is, for example)
RP/writing isn't the only artistic medium that's faced these problems. Films have historically been plagued with the issue; which is why you have editors slowing down Bruce Lee's kicks, or shaky-cam-rapid-cuts in the Jason Bourne series.
These things are done to give the audience the spectacle and thrill of combat by either (in Bruce Lee's case) making the actions slower/telegraphed and much clearer so that the audience can follow what's going on (see John Wick and the Raid for some kick-ass clarity-of-technique examples); or (in the Bourne series' case) shake the camera, cut rapidly, and end the scene early to obfuscate the technical details, and simply convey the struggle through chaos.
The reason I highlight this is because this is the exact situation Combat RP Resolution is in. RPers have to either describe their character's actions in detail, or do it vaguely and let the dice determine success/failure. Doing both at the same time is a nightmare; as they take away each other's strengths as systems.
Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Caspar - 08-05-2017
(08-05-2017, 12:11 PM)Firefly Wrote: Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.
How about both.
That aside, the role of dice as a mediator really shouldn't be ignored. Ideally RPers could decide who won as collaborators, via comparison of things like narrative goals as well as the previously mentioned factors of decisionmaking and training. But this approach of "research first and dice second" falls apart the moment players can't fully agree on what one or more characters ought to be capable of. In such cases, I think the dice can salvage a scene and still potentially create something people might enjoy reading. Moreover there are also people who enjoy randomized results and upsets, rather than constantly assign victory to who logically should win, since surprises are interesting to many. Of course upsets shock because they're rare, so usually dice systems are also a way to ensure some level of consistency in results.
The other thing to consider is, like in the example, the difference in artistic approach in "coreography" means that the two styles will eventually meet, and mediative dice roll may be the only way to comfortably allow both players the freedom necessary to enjoy the scene. I don't think the fight should necessarily be determined by ooc factors like who read more books on medieval fencing but the dice are also an ooc factor so that bears consideration as well. The ultimate goal really ought to be to create a scene that is interesting and satisfying to write for both parties; the game doesn't uphold many examples of medieval realism for example but that shouldn't make the approach unacceptable for play. In a scene with one RPer playing Dongfang Bubai or Lu Bu or sth and the other is playing Gabriel Feraud, it might be impossible to reconcile the two styles for sure, but ideally a system of rolling is something that can allow role players to accentuate their storytelling methods rather than skewing to one specific writing style or another, and still maintain a random element to allow for upsets.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Firefly - 08-05-2017
(08-05-2017, 01:38 PM)Caspar Wrote: That aside, the role of dice as a mediator really shouldn't be ignored. Ideally RPers could decide who won as collaborators, via comparison of things like narrative goals as well as the previously mentioned  factors of decisionmaking and training.
But this approach of "research first and dice second" falls apart the moment players can't fully agree on what one or more characters ought to be capable of.
In such cases, I think the dice can salvage a scene and still potentially create something people might enjoy reading.
Precisely what I mean when I say:
Quote:They should at most be supplemented by rolls (ie. success/failure is not decided by them), to simulate mistakes, circumstance, and the general chaos of combat.
(08-05-2017, 01:38 PM)Caspar Wrote: Moreover there are also people who enjoy randomized results and upsets, rather than constantly assign victory to who logically should win, since surprises are interesting to many. Of course upsets shock because they're rare, so usually dice systems are also a way to ensure some level of consistency in results.
I should probably rephrase what I mean:
What I don't mean:
"NEVER USE DICE ROLLS THEY'RE HORRIBLE AND KILL MUH REALISM"
What I do mean:
"The dice should be used in dramatic situations or moments where players can't 100% agree, or when necessary."
RP is about action and consequence. Relying on, and resolving every action in combat with only a dice roll (no modifiers, etc.) places everything to chance rather than character choice and personality.
I think rolling/roll-systems are incredible for resolving disputes, and are entirely necessary in situations where you have large amounts of people with varying opinions on Fight RP/fighting in general.
Quote:The other thing to consider is, like in the example, the difference in artistic approach in "coreography" means that the two styles will eventually meet, and mediative dice roll may be the only way to comfortably allow both players the freedom necessary to enjoy the scene. I don't think the fight should necessarily be determined by ooc factors like who read more books on medieval fencig but the dice are also an ooc factor so that bears consideration as well.
In the world of Final Fantasy 14, there's a lot of ways for someone to express their character's personality through their fighting style, realism be damned. They're completely valid, and can make sense within the context of the game's magical setting.
I 100% agree that actions in fighting RP shouldn't be determined by OOC factors -- it's, after all, an IC affair about your character's decisions and their personality/personal philosophy.
RPing is pretty much founded on the suspension of disbelief. Sure, our setting is magical as all hell, with dragons, big beasties roaming around, and people who can set you on fire; but it all starts from our base experiences in the real world.
From there, we change things based on the context of the setting, and break the rules.
Magic breaks a lot of the rules, but the rules are there. Leverage and physics are still a thing, time flows at a similar rate, and a jab is still a fast punch. This provides perspective.
Take your Dongfang vs Feraud example. Sure, completely different characters from different genres, but that's absolutely reconciled in FFXIV. Dongfang's needlework can easily be justified through magic and if it's written with enough care and respect towards that base perspective (ie. the writer makes it clear that Dongfang is doing superhuman feats), it can be incredibly enjoyable! Even if you're the fencing-manual-reading player of Feraud, writing him getting his absolute ass handed to him.
Digressions aside, what I meant to say in my previous post is that any system of conflict resolution is valid, but work better depending on the type of players involved. Ultimately, people just want to have the fight happen, and for character development to happen.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Verad - 08-05-2017
(08-05-2017, 12:11 PM)Firefly Wrote: Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.
I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Firefly - 08-05-2017
(08-05-2017, 03:01 PM)Verad Wrote:(08-05-2017, 12:11 PM)Firefly Wrote: Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.
I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?
Yeah, I do! The cutscene fights are great, because they're an absolute spectacle; which is the point of those gifs.
If you look at those two gifs, you see the first being a very clinical, very direct approach that appeals to one type of audience, and in the second, you see a very flashy, spectacle-oriented approach.
My point is that when you go blow-by-blow/hyper-detail-oriented/omg-logic-wars, a lot of the personality of your character comes from their approach and their actions.
When you're RPing in a Highest-Roll = win scenario, the characterisation comes from the spectacle and the outcome of the fight itself. It's no longer about how the characters fight, but who wins. If you use a blow-by-blow approach in that scenario, the dice will sometimes (as they aren't influenced by anything) create a situation where both fighters are flailing around with no real gameplan or objective, which can be distracting. EDIT: I guess the best way I can fumble with this is that after the dice have been cast, the suspense is gone, if that makes sense?
I admit, it was all wrapped in a cheeky jab, but I just wanted an excuse to use that Anakin vs Obi-Wan gif.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Diskwrite - 08-06-2017
(08-05-2017, 03:27 PM)Firefly Wrote:(08-05-2017, 03:01 PM)Verad Wrote:(08-05-2017, 12:11 PM)Firefly Wrote: Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.
I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?
Yeah, I do! The cutscene fights are great, because they're an absolute spectacle; which is the point of those gifs.
If you look at those two gifs, you see the first being a very clinical, very direct approach that appeals to one type of audience, and in the second, you see a very flashy, spectacle-oriented approach.
My point is that when you go blow-by-blow/hyper-detail-oriented/omg-logic-wars, a lot of the personality of your character comes from their approach and their actions.
When you're RPing in a Highest-Roll = win scenario, the characterisation comes from the spectacle and the outcome of the fight itself. It's no longer about how the characters fight, but who wins. If you use a blow-by-blow approach in that scenario, the dice will sometimes (as they aren't influenced by anything) create a situation where both fighters are flailing around with no real gameplan or objective, which can be distracting. EDIT: I guess the best way I can fumble with this is that after the dice have been cast, the suspense is gone, if that makes sense?
I admit, it was all wrapped in a cheeky jab, but I just wanted an excuse to use that Anakin vs Obi-Wan gif.
Your example is interesting to me because I've watched the fight scenes in, say, A Phantom Menace, with some of my sword nerd friends, and they've talked at length about how great and realistic the fight choreography was.
But, that's trivial and distracting from your point.
You seem to be conflating two things: 1) What you define as realism in fight RP, and 2) The freeform fighting RP style you prefer. And this is set opposed to another conflation: A) Fight RP that you see as more spectacle and less realism, and B) Settling the outcome of an RP fight with rolls.
You've defined these conflations based on what you perceive as their like purpose. For the first, the purpose is to go into a hyper-detailed play by play and lose yourself in the detailed mechanics of the fight. The second, enjoying a bombastic display where you roll, handwave things, and don't care about the nitty gritty.
But these things don't necessarily have to be combined.
Back in my ye olde freeform fighting RP days, I got into ridiculous logic battles in which we dodged for days and used tactics not true to anatomy or fighting form at all. But we did them anyway because they'd logic us to victory! Realism was not the point, it was trying to win.
Today, I focus on realism more. But, I haven't engaged in freeform fighting RP in over a decade. Truth be told, I don't enjoy drawn out fighting RP anymore. I used to do it a whole lot and nowadays I'm bored of it. If a roll helps adjudicate the result and speeds thing along (instead of letting things progress into a half-hour long dodge fest like the last freeform fighting RP I watched), then frankly I'm all for it.
It's still very possible to favor realism with rolls, and sometimes it can be a fun narrative challenge to figure out how to explain things from a given random result. It may not be super detailed, but a realistic fight can still be achieved.
I think of it in a similar way to a R-rated sex scene versus an explicit one. The sex can still be interesting and realistic even if you don't get down to the nitty gritty detail. (And in fact, depending on your preferences and narrative purposes, you might not want to do the explicit scene at all.)
One notable thing about how you described fighting RP: I've seen people who prefer RPing out sex scenes in detail make the same argument- through RPing it out in detail you see more about the characters and how they interact with each other than you might otherwise.
I think that's a fine notion, and I've observed similar, but that doesn't make one method better or more realistic than the other. Having a preference- whatever you may prefer- is fine.