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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Rolling Systems in RP (/showthread.php?tid=20239)
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Kerrath - 07-30-2017
more thoughts in each for me:
-character sheets are homework. i could see them being worth the time for an extended campaign, but at that rate you may as well play a dedicated pen and paper rpg.
-freeform is good if you trust the other person and have a general idea for how you want this to go down. if there's no plan for the fight's outcome, though, i'm not a fan.
-straight rolls, to me, are only a problem when there's a clear disparity in fighting prowess between the two characters. the upside is that randomness can add an element of spontaneity/unpredictability.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Verad - 07-30-2017
(07-30-2017, 05:45 PM)Kerrath Wrote: more thoughts in each for me:
-character sheets are homework. i could see them being worth the time for an extended campaign, but at that rate you may as well play a dedicated pen and paper rpg.
I mean, I am. I'm just doing it here. They're not totally separate entities.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Sig - 07-31-2017
Less is more when it comes to rolling systems. Narrative and character actions should drive RP content. When I incorporate RNG into roleplay, it is usually in a very loose, interpretive fashion (i.e. - low rolls = sucking; high rolls = amazing -- but not always).
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Edvyn - 07-31-2017
i screwed around with a roll system which gives the ingame /random the illusion of a single d10, coupled with an action economy i stole from d&d 5e, arbitrary wound values and some modular character archetypes which i wrote to cover basically everything the average ffxiv player would come up with
after a little more testing, i might even let people i don't know have it
i'm more tilted toward the fluff end of things so i like to keep mechanics simple, but that's not all of it - the reality is that a decent amount of mmo rpers have not played and never will play a tabletop rpg. they aren't going to do the homework required to write up even a basic character sheet, and there is no way id require that sort of thing for participation in my events - to do so would bar a lot of very interesting people from entry!
nerds are lazy, there's also nothing wrong with this and if your system won't appeal to lazy people it's going to be less and less accessible
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - ExAtomos - 07-31-2017
I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet (but it is still early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee). I use the in game /random as a percentage system for performing certain feats like dodging that poison dart trap or noticing a hidden door. I'll scale the "difficulty" according to the character's general skill/abilities (nothing set in stone). So if the character is a skilled game hunter, I figure they'll probably be pretty good at noticing a shadow seems to be following them and will set the bar pretty low (/random 400 or higher, for example). If the character is the academic type, prone to long periods of focused study, I'd expect say, 700 or higher.
For combat, I go with the higher/lower thing with the numbers used as a sort of modifier. So if the character randoms an 850 to the opponent's 130, whatever they do will probably send the opponent flying/to the ground. I want the fight to progress logically. Better /randoms combined with detailed emotes (what is targeted, for example) and the character will win.
This system requires a lot of trust all around. The players trust me not to make things impossible for them and run things fairly and reasonably; I trust the players not to fudge their rolls or go into god mode (when running a scene, we may not all be in the same location.) I have successfully run dnd-style narrative scenes this way.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Aegir - 07-31-2017
I love participating in and trying out different systems~ So far there has only been...two.... I've tried out that have been so complicated that I wanted to erase myself from existence.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Valence - 07-31-2017
The main advantage of rolls is what makes it fun for players involved, which is surprise. People have fun because they don't know exactly what the outcome is, and even if there is a strong chance for it to be that way instead of this way, there is still the little possibility something screws everything up.
Rolls are by definition game elements and thus bring a more gamey feel to what they touch. It's the exact same thing that people arguing for or against full story games like Quantic Dream games or Telltales, and whether or not they are games and whatever asinine argument it is always about. It's basically just a matter of taste, and in our online case, of context. Some events will require the smallest amount of rules by necessity, and some at the contrary, a mandatory base for various reasons.
That being said a system I usually find acceptable and always easy to implement in most situations when people want to create differences in what characters specializations are and their respective level of power, is asking players to make me a list of their skills/abilities and rate them from 1 to 9. The higher the most potent.
Then it's a simple matter of roll/check. If your character rates 6 at a specific skill, if they roll under 600 they are good, above, they fail.
In case of opposing rolls like for combat, people roll their dices, check if they aimed correctly, and if so for example for a character with a skill of 6, they have to roll under 600 to pass. It doesn't mean the enemy is hit however. The other player will also roll their opposing skill and if only one succeeds, then they hit automatically, and if both succeed, then the one being higher than the other hits and cause damage. It means someone with a higher skill rating will always get a certain advantage over the other since they can roll way higher while still passing their ability check.
To take an example, the Warrior of Light having a swordsmanship skill of 9 versus a lvl1 mite having a melee skill of 1, the WoL can roll between 1 and 900 to pass, while the mite will only be able to pass between 1 and 100. Which leaves 100 to 900 for the WoL to win even if the mite passes its 1-100 check.
A variant can also include a dodging skill instead if you want to keep a strong difference between attacker and defender, or if you think it works best for ranged combat for example.
You can of course makes things more complex if you like as a GM by adding your standard bonus or malus to rolls depending on the context (a short sword vs a lance, etc).
I find that system overall to be pretty simple and elegant and works most of the time for rules light contexts like MMO RP.
Edit: you ask me, but what about a ranged fighter versus a melee fighter? Good question, and you have several ways to deal with it, for example, Melee can't attack as long as they are not in melee range and can only roll an evasion skill instead. Once they are at range, the ranged attacker will suffer malus to their rolls.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Chompie - 07-31-2017
In pick-up RP, I pretty much never use rolls. Rolls slow things down and.. honestly, I don't like just 'roll to see if success'. Fighting another player, it takes nothing into account, it's just a coin toss. Doing anything else in pick-up RP, it's pretty pointless. If I roll badly to find where the villain hideout is... that doesn't make our little scene more interesting. So, I tend towards freeform in pick-up RP!
However. In fights between players, I hate when it becomes logic-boxing, which Verad brought up earlier. It's powergaming except there's no system to game, so there's just this morass of words that says 'every approach is covered because I've thought of all of them' and that's also not fun. Luckily, this is rarely a problem for me because my character is flighty, sees no shame in running away and is very good at it. So I can end those RPs pretty easy and go do something else.
But.. What would drive people to try to cover everything? Why might some people frown at randomness?
People hate when their characters get harmed in a way they didn't plan. This is a pretty big constant across lotsa people! Sure, it's sometimes quite unreasonable and can stifle character growth... but I wouldn't jump to saying it's because everyone's a poor sport. No, this frequently has more to do with the inherent problems of a Group of people doing scenes together.
People naturally want to play together, but everyone writes in different genres. I'm over here writing The Adventures of Tintin, but my friend who also wants to be a part of things is writing Sin City. My end goal is that there'll be a wild tale to tell at the end, but players will generally come out just fine and ready for the next episode. My friend, let's call her Silbra, she wants things to be dark and grueling. She wants characters to overcome horrors, to amass scars from close calls, and generally have bad things that happen have a real effect on the characters!
Neither of us are wrong. They're both good ways to write, they're just quite different and not particularly compatible. But we're friends, and we want to RP together with all our other friends!
So how do we reconcile this? Rules. When it comes to big group events, it's very hard to get through them without rules of some kind! Rules like "Wait til everyone else has posted before you post again" are common. Sometimes there are disclaimers when someone's going to host one, like "Characters might be hurt in such a way/severity". And rules very easily give way to a roll system! Maybe a simple one, maybe a full tabletop system! I'll get back to that in a bit.
Arbitration is the biggest problem in group RP events. Someone has to run it, someone has to be the one who says what's going on, someone has to make sure it's fun for everyone and not just That One Guy.
But just.. needing to have someone arbitrating is rough.
- They run the story, but generally don't get to play their own character
- They need to know what the players' characters are good at, to properly understand how to give them fun. Which preeetty much amounts to character sheets if it's a group where you don't intimately know everyone.
- Or you could distribute information on the kinds of things foes will do, and have everyone play and narrate trials and foes at the same time! But that requires a VERY good connection and trust between everyone. Which is rare!
I think I've started rambling. Uuuh. Whatever point I was aiming at, I don't know.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Sasarna Sarna - 08-03-2017
My friend made this combat system they refer to as 'dnd lite' that's based on the /random rolling system. We've been using it for dnd ffxiv sessions for the better part of a year now ^^
You can see more about it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mSkt4ZEufv3ZHL3Gk2EBwqa8eR6SHw7Jbz4ccsg4Pos/edit
There's a lot there, but that's simply because it's designed to be completely customisable. You want to play a character that can't be hit? You want to play a glass cannon, your rolls -will- reflect that. If anyone wants to sit in on a game, hit my discord up on 'The Laladome #8597' Our current campaign is as soldiers in the Ala Mhigo rebellion.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Verad - 08-03-2017
Sasarna, where the hell have you been all my life.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Sasarna Sarna - 08-03-2017
(08-03-2017, 07:11 AM)Verad Wrote: Sasarna, where the hell have you been all my life.I've been around, I just didn't see this thread until now.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Venjamin - 08-03-2017
@[Verad] ( I don't know if tagging works the same here... )
Rhydin. Talk about a blast from the past. I know exactly what you're talking about - I cut my teeth on the old AOL chat rooms.
Anyways!
I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all, considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another.Â
My personal opinion is that narrative is the way to go, but I play tabletops (dnd 5e and whitewolf ) and can enjoy dice rolls when appropriate. The only kicker is a way to show acquired skill, etc., which inherently unbalances a system.
So. Sideways.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Gegenji - 08-03-2017
(08-03-2017, 08:21 AM)Venjamin Wrote: I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all, considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another.Â
Quoting someone tends to give them an alert that they've been messaged, so doing that would likely help grab Verad's attention. Anyway...
If I'm not mistaken, you really can't just Duel people out in the open like you can in WoW. You'd have to go all the way to the Wolf's Den PvP area in La Noscea if you wanted to do that.
... And even then, that is less a show of your character's skill and aptitude and more your own personal mechanical skill at the game. Furthermore, the PVP move sets for the various combat jobs are different from what you use in PVE, so there's the additional mechanical knowledge of how to specifically battle in the provided PVP environment. And that's not even getting into the PVP meta of which jobs do better there than others, especially in a 1v1 situation.
It just adds what I feel is an additional requirement to the RP situation that doesn't need to be there. You can't just say you're a solid fighter, you have to have honed PVP skills to "prove" it rather than portraying it via writing like everything else in RP.
... Of course, I suppose at its basest level even creating character sheets and learning an external system like FATE-14 or Sasarna's DnD-Lite is ALSO an additional requirement that just as easily might not need to be there. So, in essence, using the in-game dueling system (if any) to show combat prowess is just as good as any of the other systems in that it has its uses but also has its flaws.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Erah'sae - 08-03-2017
(08-03-2017, 08:21 AM)Venjamin Wrote: I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another.Â
While I enjoy a good bout of pvp, I have problems with mechanical pvp, and it creeps into any heavy system based thing. Â I get very performance self-competitive when playing video games. Â Always pushing myself to do better. Â In mechanical pvp it's -really- hard for me not to play at my best.
Narrative combat lets me have Erah'sae 'fail' more and in more interesting ways.
RE: Rolling Systems in RP - Kilieit - 08-03-2017
(08-03-2017, 08:21 AM)Venjamin Wrote: I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all, considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another.Â
That's for Triple Triad matches... while the idea of people using card games to decide fights is kind of hilarious, I only have the default deck and wouldn't be super chuffed at having to farm cards just to be able to RP a character who's skilled at martial combat. >_> It'd be just another form of RNG, with more "ha-ha I've been playing the game longer than you so you're gonna lose" mixed in.
I'm glad PvP duels are restricted geographically. As someone who levels very slowly and doesn't really care about gearing up (still level 68 seven weeks after expac launch, sup) the expectation that an out of character duel should decide in character outcome sucks. It sucked in WoW. It would suck here. In my experience, the only people who think it's good are the people who it works for - whose character matches up with their PvP experience... but I think that's a dumb thing to limit by. You shouldn't be restricted to playing weaponless peasants if you're bad at PvP. It's arbitrary.
It's true that someone gaming a roll system could gain a similar advantage, but at least that's, like... roleplay-related. As much as I have a distaste for systems (especially ones that take hours to pick up), while you're learning a new one, you're thinking constantly about your RP character. You're considering their abilities and how best to portray them via the system. You're talking with your DM about how best to implement your character's special traits. You're bringing them out through their character sheet.
When you're learning PvP, you're not thinking about any of that - it's pure game mechanics, and there's a specific set of ways to play your job to win, meaning there's no room for character flavour. To put it in WoW terms, because specs make it easier to demonstrate what I mean - if Elemental shaman is weak in PvP right now and Enhancement shaman is strong, it doesn't matter how well Ele fits my character's story. It doesn't matter how long she's been attuning to the elements and how well her cause aligns with theirs. It doesn't matter if she has physical reasons why she shouldn't be an effective melée fighter, meaning turret casting makes more sense for her as a tactic. If I want her to win a fight she needs to be Enh. Regardless of opponent. End of story.
That's why roll systems are the superior method of deciding an outcome, IMO - PvP may as well be rock-paper-scissors for how much it tells you about the person's actual RP character.
TL;DR I agree with Gegenji.