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Avatar vs Immersive RP - Printable Version

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Avatar vs Immersive RP - maoilmhin - 07-27-2017

I mostly read RPC to pickup information to help learn RP in the FFXIV environment, and get ideas on how to develop a character in said environment.   I keep seeing the word "immersion" pop up in threads.   My exposure to RP in the past always treated the character as being a separate entity/avatar.

Am I just misunderstanding the context and avatar / immersion are the same thing?

If they are separate:

How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Kaiverta - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 09:49 AM)Niamh Wrote: I mostly read RPC to pickup information to help learn RP in the FFXIV environment, and get ideas on how to develop a character in said environment.   I keep seeing the word "immersion" pop up in threads.   My exposure to RP in the past always treated the character as being a separate entity/avatar.
Am I just misunderstanding the context and avatar / immersion are the same thing?

If they are separate:

How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?
I write in third person, and past tense.

I used to write in third person, PRESENT tense, but changed my style when I went from one MuD to another, and found that past tense works better. It also depends on your community. The new community I'm in writes more in past tense than in present tense, and even though not everyone writes in the same tenses, it all still works out.

If I was writing by myself, I might write in first person from the perspective of the character I'm 'animating', but if there are others around and they want to read or interact with my post, then there's the added problem of them feeling a bit put off by reading someone's 'first person' perspective as if it was their own character doing those actions, because they're reading 'me, I," instead of 'he/her'. Does that make sense? >>

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Erah'sae - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 09:49 AM)Niamh Wrote: I mostly read RPC to pickup information to help learn RP in the FFXIV environment, and get ideas on how to develop a character in said environment.   I keep seeing the word "immersion" pop up in threads.   My exposure to RP in the past always treated the character as being a separate entity/avatar.

Am I just misunderstanding the context and avatar / immersion are the same thing?

If they are separate:

How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?

I got a postponement of the meeting I'm waiting on so I'm glad I can respond to this.

Immersion is one of those terms that gets thrown around a lot and I don't think most people really understand what it means.  For some it just means RPing free of distraction.   For me to become 'immersed' in RP is kind of like method acting.  It's something I haven't been able to indulge myself with because I have too many constant real world distractions to keep me from falling into a character that closely. 

>> How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

For me, this being like method acting, you leave yourself behind and put yourself in the character's position.  You let yourself feel instead of just watch.  Yes, there's a ton of bleed over because you're making yourself feel what the character is feeling, and going through a lot of it as you're creating a rather direct emotional attachment to what the character is going through.

While doing this I tend to completely cut off OOC communication except for the bare necessities.  (read: I'll probably send a tell before doing something like trying to stab someone's hand, etc to make sure it's ok.)  

It is difficult to keep OOC influences away from the character, but this is not really any different from regular day to day RP as well.

>>  Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?


Not really.   I sometimes zoom in to check to make sure I should be seeing what I think my character is seeing.  Sometimes I've zoomed in to help prevent self-meta-gaming.   It is really impractical since you have a very narrow viewpoint in 1st person mode compared to a real world 160 degree scope and in game 1st person point of view is often a 80-90 degree cone.


>> Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?


No, not in the least to either question and no one really needs to pick up on it.
If someone I'm RPing with is baragging me with OOC tells about the scene or their actions I'll often just suggest "lets leave it in play" or "let the scene play out as it will, do as you want" to keep it from spilling over into OOC too far.


>> Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?


No?  They may ask you to just stick to IC interaction, but that goes for non-immersed people too sometimes.

There's no grand line or change of rulesets between the styles of textual character acting we call RP.  

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Valence - 07-27-2017

Immersion to me isn't about your character being you. This is a slippery slope.

Immersion is about immersing yourself in the story others and you are weaving together. The character just happens to be your medium, and since the story is supposed to create emotions and feelings, you will get attached to them of course. Like any writer.

Edit: well ok, I can see why some people prefer the former and would play as such. Not my cup of tea and I generally avoid such roleplayers like the plague. They are just incompatible with the latter and they rarely make interesting or fleshed out narrative characters, but that's just my opinion.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Kilieit - 07-27-2017

In my experience, all they mean is the kind of "immersion" you can get from, say, watching a movie. When you watch it, if you're into it, you'll feel a little sad when something bad happens to the characters you like, you'll feel a little happy when good things happen to them, you feel a little scared when scary things happen, and when the movie ends you'll just feel satisfied that you enjoyed it.

There's no lingering sadness/happiness/fear. But the immersion is still there - in the moment, you still feel stuff in relation to the on-screen events. And I think for most people, if there isn't that temporary emotional connection, you end up getting distracted, feeling disinterested, and not enjoying the movie as much. If something in the movie happens that doesn't make sense to you, then it "breaks your immersion", forcing you out of the headspace where you're focussing on the feelings and into a headspace where you're trying to rationalise what you just saw, and most people find that less fun.

At no point is there any illusion that you're "in" the movie, that you as a real person are a real participant in the movie; (to take common examples of problems that arise from having no IC/OOC divide) there's no feeling that if something bad happens in the movie to the character you like that it's a personal slight against you as a movie-goer, or that if a romance happens on-screen that it means that the actor portraying it is now dating you IRL.

Movies aren't an interactable format, so it's much rarer for people to feel that way in relation to them. But the point I'm making is that immersion (which can happen when watching a movie... or reading a book, or any other non-interactable media that tells a story) is a separate thing from a lack of IC/OOC divide (which is a phenomenon largely restricted to roleplay).

I think most people, when they're watching a movie, can easily understand "ah, I feel sad because a sad thing is happening in the movie; this movie is really good!". At no point do they go "I feel sad because the director is personally trying to upset me!". The problems don't arise when you begin to feel emotions at all as a result of a roleplay - they arise when this conflation happens; when you jump from "this person's character is behaving in an upsetting fashion" to "this person is trying to upset me".

Because of the interactable nature of roleplay, it lends itself much more strongly to those mistakes. But I think folding "feeling any emotions at all from a roleplay" (i.e. having immersion) in with "having no IC/OOC divide" simplifies the issue, and makes it harder to understand. The IC/OOC divide is in being able to recognise where those feelings are coming from ("I feel sad because a sad thing is happening in the roleplay" vs "I feel sad because this person is trying to upset me") and act accordingly (continuing the roleplay IC, rather than making OOC accusations).

TL;DR Recreationally inducing feelings through storytelling isn't the same as having no IC/OOC divide.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Molgo Meringo - 07-27-2017

As it's been mentioned above I think the word gets thrown around a lot in RP circles and it does mean different things to different people.

For me it's purely a case of being able to act in a way that my character would, rather than in the way that I would. So if I'm in a funny/playful mood IRL and my character's at a funeral, then I might find it hard to RP that in the best way unless I'm immersed in what's going on in Molgo's world.

Personally I think the line between IC/OOC can become blurred due to a lack of immersion, as when you're not immersed then it can be more likely that more of 'you' comes through in your characters actions.

I don't think you need to worry too much about whether other players are immersed or not - just react to their character's actions rather than thinking about what might be going on behind the screen - that'll also help you to become more immersed too.

Finally, I think standard roleplay etiquette applies when talking about immersion. Try to limit (or completely avoid) OOC interaction in public channels (it's hard to be immersed when someone is chatting about what their cat is doing IRL etc.). If you get to a stage when you're RPing with someone and it feels like it's flowing really well and you're not constantly asking yourself 'hmm, how would my character respond to that?' then you're probably pretty immersed!

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Valence - 07-27-2017

Oh, now I remember what I wanted to add now that we are talking about movies.

Immersion is probably a little like suspension of disbelief. If the latter breaks, your immersion breaks. If on the contrary, it strives, because it makes you believe, then you are all the more immersed.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Erah'sae - 07-27-2017

I should add to my previous post, that that sort of method acting requires some care and a really solid sense of 'self' to prevent bad bleed over.  My characters are just that, characters.  

The terms 'avatar', 'muse' (ye gods, I hate that term), or even person is way too strong in my opinion.

It also requires a bit of a 'cool down' period after playing the character to let reality reimpose itself.  To let lingering emotions fade, and the like.  (Especially any violent ones which a good conflict will bring.)

This is not entirely unlike the small period of disorientation felt after finishing a really, really, good book.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Fox - 07-27-2017

-How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

I personally do not do the whole 'immersion' thing. For me; it's far too close to allowing myself to blur IC and OOC. I've been rping since I was 15, I'm in my early 30's now. It is how I have played and will always play. I started out in text format and when I did; it was in yahoo chat in a realm called Ayenee (Arts & Entertainment) and I was always taught to strictly keep IC and OOC separate. So I do not personally involve myself with the whole immersion/avatar situation.

I tend to see myself more of a writer than rper. I don't necessarily play the role I'm writing for my character when it comes down to it. I'm not playing a role persay. I do not feel comfortable with getting emotionally tied with a character it leads to serious problems. And I do not involve myself generally with people who do because I have been stalked and harassed in the past.


-Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

No, I cannot stand the use of 1st person point of view outside of character journals. Third person past usually, sometimes present when dealing with people who wish to use it.

-Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Nope, not at all. People should be able to tell the difference between the player and the character, if they don't then there is something possibly wrong in the way that someone cannot tell the difference between reality (as much as they can have reality online) and fiction.

-Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?

I tend to see an "avatar" as still a representation of immersion; "an icon or figure representing a particular person in video games, Internet forums, etc." -definition of an 'avatar'. I'm not my character. Because of this I tend to reference my character as that- a character. Technically the 'avatar' is a digital presence of me online; but when it comes to roleplay no.

Now is the etiquette for talking with me as an individual and not my character different? Yes. I have a really hard line with OOC/IC blur. Most of the time I will not involve myself with someone who cannot divorce themselves from their character/avatar/immersed being; because it leads to a lot of problems- and sometimes stalking. So there is definitely a different etiquette; respect the person behind the screen to the best of your ability (ie. don't be a creeper) vs. treating my character however way.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - maoilmhin - 07-27-2017

Thank you for the responses / explanations.   It seems the term is rather ambiguous, and I'll just have to roll with how the individual is using it. (hopefully being able to piece together the context from other observations)   

One take away for me from this is that I definitely need to do a better job of removing external distractions while I RP.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Firefly - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 09:49 AM)Niamh Wrote: Am I just misunderstanding the context and avatar / immersion are the same thing?

Depends on who you ask, but in general, as an 'immersion-focused' RPer myself, they aren't the same thing, but not mutually exclusive.

'Avatar' RP is pretty much the only standard that exists that 'defines' a 'good' RPer, as from what I understand, it just means that the RPer in question understands and practices the IC/OOC divide.

There's honestly absolutely nothing that stops an immersion-focused RPer from doing that, because a focus on immersion is just a different perspective on RP. It's not in the same family as Avatar RP vs Self-insert RP -- it's in the same family/comparison pool as 'Plot-focused' RP or 'Story-driven' or 'Erotic-focused'.

An immersion-focused RPer tends to go extremely into the nitty-gritty details of their characters, their mindset, and their actions. They also, but not always, try to consider what other characters and players see; so they tend to avoid including their character's thoughts in their emotes, or use subjective adjectives. This way, they put the onus on the reader to figure out their character's emotions/thoughts through their detailed actions.

These details, and the depth of which these players take them, can vary greatly; but they're always usually little things that most RPers and writers tend to gloss over. Things like their character's need to eat, their travel time, the amount of money they have on hand, what exactly they've brought with them, environmental conditions, etc.

The reason for this focus on such inane details is that most immersion-RPers like and see potential character development/exploration in these interactions. They like the extra perspective and little nuggets of personality that come from these.

This is why, as others in above posts have said, immersion-RPers tend to ignore or not communicate in OOC often -- the entire RP philosophy revolves around going with the flow and taking IC happenings and consequences as purely that -- roleplay.

They immerse themselves by paying attention to more than just the surface details, in order to give them their character's perspective, so that they may better understand the character and write them in a more consistent and believable manner.

EDIT: This type of RP is honestly very difficult to do in MMOs, which is why it's rare. Most people, upon seeing a fight or a conversation happen, tend to overlook the flow of time in the RP; so you have situations in MMOs where Patron 1 of the Quicksand starts a brawl with Patron 2. One punch is thrown, and then suddenly all 50 people in the bar have crowded around and moved into restrain the brawlers before Patron 2 can respond.

Some Immersion RPers will sit and wait for several emotes to pass before reacting, to bypass the RP-time-dilation effect, and staying in accordance to what they call 'timescale'.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Fox - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 01:34 PM)Firefly Wrote: <snip>

I tend to generally agree with this; but I do feel that 'writers' do get often detailed in their character as well. I certainly try to write a character as a character but consider how this individual character will perceive or do something; ie. timeline/teleportation, things that the character might eat- etc. So I tend to think that is more of a thought of someone who generally creates concepts for their character whether it's a writer/rper or an immersion-rper. I feel this can be done without becoming one's character; as it were.

However this being said the term immersion is incredibly subjective. For me, Nia? Immersion is seen more of a role; while others may think immersion in the terms of consideration of their char.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Firefly - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 01:40 PM)Foxberry Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 01:34 PM)Firefly Wrote: <snip>

I tend to generally agree with this; but I do feel that 'writers' do get often detailed in their character as well. I certainly try to write a character as a character but consider how this individual character will perceive or do something; ie. timeline/teleportation, things that the character might eat- etc. So I tend to think that is more of a thought of someone who generally creates concepts for their character whether it's a writer/rper or an immersion-rper. I feel this can be done without becoming one's character; as it were.

I think it's not really a 'you are or you aren't' thing; it's more of a sliding scale. If it were binary, I'd say the distinguishing factor is the immersion-trending RPer's meticulous consideration of their surroundings.

The thing to consider though is that it's not really about becoming one's character, but knowing, completely (and I stress completely; or close to it as possible), the context of their actions.

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Kaiverta - 07-27-2017

I can wholly immerse myself in my character. I'm a creator through and through - from my art to my writing. I don't often have to think of how my character would react because he's so ingrained in me (I have been playing this particular one for about seventeen years) that he writes himself. It's really rewarding. You also have to make sure that you can disconnect IC from OOC, though. If something happens to your character, it isn't happening to you. And that's easy for me to do. I think it comes from years of practice and the fact that I'm an old lady these days lol.

To what Firefly said... I completely know my character, inside and out. Smile

RE: Avatar vs Immersive RP - Arashin Kujqai - 07-28-2017

(07-27-2017, 09:49 AM)Niamh Wrote: I mostly read RPC to pickup information to help learn RP in the FFXIV environment, and get ideas on how to develop a character in said environment.   I keep seeing the word "immersion" pop up in threads.   My exposure to RP in the past always treated the character as being a separate entity/avatar.

Am I just misunderstanding the context and avatar / immersion are the same thing?

If they are separate:

How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?
Ideally immersion should be mean to put yourself into such a way that you understand and feel what you see as if it was you. Like when people play dark souls or an open world shooter and they want to feel immersed being in a world of demons or zombies. They typically feel like they are the ones aiming the gun or hacking away with the crisp sounds of wind blowing at their backs and story given reason to progress. For me, I immerse myself into my character by having no OOC distractions and trying to keep to IC alone(not too many OOC mentions or breaks in between).

Immersion isn't so much that you become your character or vice versa as it is just putting your perspective on the same level as your character. It helps to have headphones(noise cancellation) and a wide enough screen (to feel like the world is around your perspective of sight) as well. To answer more directly though...

How do you create the line between IC and OOC if you are truly "immersed"?

Depends on the setting and who you RP with. If I'm in a spot on the map that has people talking about memes while I'm IC, I'm not really going to feel truly immersed. However if I'm with a group of people I'm RP'ing with and we're in a deep discussion or plot related issue, I get immersed into it as if I'm listening for my character. The line is just drawn between OOC and IC interaction really, if you need to do something IRL or something's going on that needs your attention OOCly, you go handle it. When you're free and nothing's distracting you and you're in the middle of RP, then remain in character with the setting and people that you're with. I often also apply some reasoning for things like when I need to leave, I'll tell the group I'm with I need to go OOCly but then ICly talk on a linkshell or pretend my character forgot something and have to teleport away. Helps let the RP flow for the group and allows me to leave if I need to. It's also helpful in making sure the time you spend RP'ing is IC, so you know next time you turn the tag on or go into the RP mode to turn on your immersion senses, you can just pick up from there instead of having it flicker on and off so to speak. Helps to stay concentrated and believe in the actions at hand to "create immersion", as you'll better understand and feel your character's reactions, replies, and etc to how you wrote them.

Do you play in 1st person view to maintain your immersion?

Not at all, though like someone said, sometimes I'll zoom in just to better see faces, items held or attire. It's too small of a zoom in and can often clip people's faces... Immersion isn't based on the 1st or 3rd person perspective for me. Mostly because my attention is on the world around me and other people than my own character(hence why I get irritated when people make fem chars and say "I wanted something nice to look at, if I'ma stare at my own character's ass all day!"... just look around at the game ya dingles >_>). There's also some times when I'm looking at the sky or something in particular around in the world just to better examine it's details, but otherwise I would not be able to maintain that all the time for RP.

Do you declare that you are "immersed" to others during RP interactions, or is it something participants should just pick up on?

Personally I notice some people have different ways they display how they're immersed or RP'ing. Some use quotes around their text to note they're writing for their character, others like myself just turn on the RP tag and walk around with a search comment listing some basics about their character. I think of it like this, compare it to IRL... Would you go to a movie and while you're watching it go "I'm watching and enjoying this movie! Who else is?" in the middle of the theater? Ideally in a RP setting or when you decide to set yourself into an RP mode where your character and you are immersed in feeling and the like, you would go around as if you would a regular person in FF14. Some people prefer tells and the like because they may be nervous or not handle walkups well but for people who do walkups or hardcore RP, walking around feeling immersed and bumping into RP is pretty natural to feel. My character typically is pretty quiet and walks around, may sit somewhere, start writing to himself in his journal and maybe someone curious enough will walk up to him and ask or get curious enough to look over his shoulder. Other times I may see a stranger wearing particular clothing or possibly overhear a conversation that my character may want to join in on. Assuming I understand they're ICly talking, I join in as I would ICly as well. Sending a tell to make sure never hurts either but for those who do walkups and have RP tags on, I usually assume it means they're IC as they speak. Participants usually pick up on it for me just because of my search comment and RP tag being on, as well as me walking instead of running around. Again, this all varies with the setting, people you RP with, or etc.. but if we're talking just strangers online, then it's something you typically have to show in a fashion that isn't out right stating it(to help maintain immersion anyways). Like going to a convention and seeing someone wearing a star wars shirt, you'll probably take a good guess you can talk to the person about star wars seeing they have the shirt on(then again, some people wear shirts and just like how they look than knowing anything about them, but I digress). Even in that case, like Is aid, if there's any doubt, you could ask them just to make sure as you would ask an RP'er OOCly if they're IC atm.

Immersion comes down to the individual imo, your immersion shouldn't break another and vice versa. Again though, this comes down to who you RP with and where you are, but feeling your character in how they react and view their interactions shouldn't differ too much from the other RP'ers you're with. It's only when you decide to break your perspective of your character that your immersion will not be maintained(which again also is based on distractions, how many OOC interactions are mixing in or keeping you from feeling super into your RP interactions).

Is the etiquette for interacting with an "immersed" player/character different than the etiquette for interacting with an avatar?

I'm not quite sure what this one's asking, I would say no though. Immersion comes from the player feeling like they're in a wonderful magical world  of elves, fairies, dragons and the like. For a person to RP with them and act as their character would in the world would only add to their immersion of this perspective. The only differences I would say exist is OOC and IC. Obviously when someone runs up to you and asks "wanna run Shiva EX for pony farm?", you'd kinda be clueless ICly wtf that means. As a person in the universe of FF14 wouldn't know about EX's(aside from the warring triad maybe?) or that ponies are a thing dropping from shiva's body or that you can "farm" them. Versus someone walking up to you to say "Adventurer! Please heed my call, a primal has been summoned and we need your help!". Clearly you're not an adventurer IRL(we don't really have these anymore IRL huh?) so they're talking to your character through their character of an in game experience that only people of the game's universe would understand. If you're asking if there's a different way to act to an RP'er vs an immersed character though... I don't think so as they kinda go hand in hand most of the time.