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Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Printable Version

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RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Ellmida - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 04:09 PM)Kilieit Wrote: The important thing for the Qestir isn't a lack of verbal words. It's a lack of language, absolutely. The "words, deeds, beliefs" formula - the Qestir seek to remove the "words" part from it entirely, because they are most likely to be lies. Words made with hands are still words, and still lies.

Which makes RPing one even more of a challenge, but I think that's what you take on when you create one. You have to convey your character's beliefs solely through their actions.

A funny potential scenario I did think of was like - two people bickering in the presence of their Qestiri friend, and eventually the Qestir just... SCREAMS. Primally. For like ten uninterrupted seconds. Because technically, screaming is an action, not a word, and doing it certainly achieved the action of making the others shut up... xD
  Citation needed:  I believe in the initial MSQ they specify that the Qestir believe all words 
-spoken- are lies and therefore language and writing are exempt from these restrictions.  That being said I would doubt any language they do have would be complex and more or less convey needs and intent in as few "words" as possible.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Kilieit - 07-06-2017

I don't recall any such specification... can you cite that for me? Because if true, it would render the Qestir views far less internally consistent.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Ellmida - 07-06-2017

As I said, citation needed, it's how I remember it...can probably try to find a video of it?

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Kilieit - 07-06-2017

Please do.

I'm making statements based on what makes sense - we know that the principle problem with words for the Qestir is that it's easy to lie when you don't have to back up what you're saying with concrete actions, so they cut the speaking part out completely and force themselves to only commit to concepts they're willing to act on. Logically, this would apply to all languages, regardless of medium - because the ideological problem for the Qestir isn't using verbal speech, it's communicating abstract ideas and promises.

You're saying that this is incorrect, and you're saying it's incorrect because the lore explicitly (and nonsensically, but lore is lore) contradicts it... so it'd be nice if you could produce said lore. I don't remember the bit you're talking about, so I don't know what I'd be looking for.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Virella - 07-06-2017

One thing what left me wondering with Qestir though... Do they interact that much with other tribes, that they end up understanding the Xaela tongue? Because I can't imagine them teaching their children how to speak? Like, can they even speak properly, or would their speech be very broken due to this?

So many questions :l

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Silents - 07-06-2017

I’ll preface this two cents by stating that I personally cannot provide concrete evidence for or against Qestir specifically allowing written language. Here’s my personal issue with the idea though and it could simply be a case of applying too much logic to the lore in this instance.
 
In Reunion there’s a quest chain where you assist a merchant with negotiating permission to sell within the settlement. He naturally attempts to speak with the Qestir, which we know the tribe is against, and eventually turns to the other tribe representatives in the area for assistance. These individuals, from what I can recall off the top of my head, essentially tell him to communicate via the Qestir customs, so by showing actions instead of speaking words.
 

Now logically if the Qestir were open to written words surely they would be open to a form of written negotiation. One would assume that at least one person within that area would suggest writing a request instead of talking at them if that were the case.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Kilieit - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 06:06 PM)Virella Wrote: One thing what left me wondering with Qestir though... Do they interact that much with other tribes, that they end up understanding the Xaela tongue? Because I can't imagine them teaching their children how to speak? Like, can they even speak properly, or would their speech be very broken due to this?

So many questions :l

I was idly thinking about that earlier too... I was wondering if maybe part of why they're amenable to trade is so they can expose their kids to language and essentially... allow them to learn to understand others, without themselves speaking? Or would "teaching language so it can be comprehended, if not utilised" be considered an action? Perhaps younger Qestir permitted to speak so they can try it out / get used to the grammar and vocabulary by using it themself, but are expected to essentially "grow out of it" by the time they reach adolescence? Maybe they'd even position said children to be burned a few times by liars, so they understand the Qestir tradition for their own self and take it up willingly, instead of just copying the elders?

Or maybe they really can't understand language very well and that's part of why they give everyone such unimpressed looks if they try to come in talking?

SO MANY QUESTIONS. *-*

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Ellmida - 07-06-2017

I think that's overthinking it. I mean sure you can hand some foreigner a written document of your demands but how is he going to be able to read it? I think it is a lot to ask to expect the Qestir to read or write in the Doman or Kugane languages when they rarely seem to deal with anything outside their territory.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Kilieit - 07-06-2017

But the quests would have been more like, "oh, talk to this local person, they can help you draft a written proposal in the local language to resolve the misunderstanding". Instead, they just told him to do it the Qestir way.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Silents - 07-06-2017

As I mentioned, i'm fully aware that i'm likely overthinking and potentially over complicating things. And since i'm already going down that route...

I would throw out a counter argument to the idea of the Qestir being unable to read outside languages. Given that one of the tribes attempts to trick the merchant out of his wares, showing that certain tribes aren't against underhanded tactics to get ahead with the Naadam so close, why not offer to write a letter for an outsider? Surely if the Qestir were open to written language then they would logically know the written system within the Steppes and that would have been a far more subtle way for that tribe to go about their trickery. 

The merchant would get a letter that the Qestir could understand. The tribe could have potentially gotten the wares they desired out of the exchange.

Of course it's entirely possible that, like I said, i'm applying too much logic to an aspect of the game that wasn't meant to be nitpicked.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Sounsyy - 07-06-2017

Here's what I was able to find.

Tamachag Wrote:The tribe is famed for its dislike of speech─they believe that all words are merely lies. The Qestiri way is to show your intentions through your actions. Nothing else shall suffice for them.
Tamachag Wrote:The Qestir believe all words are merely lies. That is why they do not speak. It is also why I am forced to deal with so many troubled travelers, unable to understand Reunion's ways. I do not enjoy the role, but there are few others here willing to explain things orally.
Baidur Wrote:The Qestir refuse to speak. They think all words to be lies. If you wish to earn their trust then simply follow this principle. It should be clear what you need to do.
Shaken Merchant Wrote:I am quite impressed you understood that you were needed here. Working out exactly what the Qestir are trying to communicate is never easy. They believe all words to be lies and as such never open their mouths. However, they are both loyal and hoenst - that is why so many are more than happy to do business with them.
PAX West 2017 Lore Panel Wrote:Q: What would happen to a Qestir tribe member that chose to speak? Would they be punished in some way?

A: For those who don't know, the Qestir refuse to speak, they don't say anything. There are a couple reasons: They can't speak because they've never learned to speak. Their children are raised basically in silence and it's not until they're six, seven, eight, nine, ten years old when they finally actually hear language when they leave the tribe and maybe visit Reunion or maybe someone comes to their tribe to speak and trade with them. This is the first time that they actually hear speech. These children are being raised without hearing any vowels, any consonants, nothing at all. So they don't know how to speak. Even if they wanted to, it would come out in a [groaning noise] type of sounds.

That said, even if one tried really hard to speak, would they be punished in some way? They wouldn't be punished, per say, but the Qestir don't speak for a specific reason. That reason being that they believe all spoken word to be lies. If they did speak in the presence of the tribe, the rest of the tribe would think this guy's a liar. He'd be ostracized a liar, everything he said would be lies and you'd never believe him anymore. They wouldn't be kicked out, per say, but they would be liars.

It's kind of hard to say one way or the other. But from all of the quotes I pulled from Reunion quests, they focus heavily upon word of mouth. No one outright states that the written word is viable or not. Though I feel like it wouldn't be that easy. Perhaps the written word is useless to people who 1) can't read or 2) can't read the xaela or qestiri written word. Or perhaps written words aren't lies, but they're not truths either and there's little stock in them when it is the action and intention with which things are done or given that speak loudest. Which might explain this:

SYSTEM Wrote:You are handed a vellum covered with Qestiri markings. Cotota points in the direction Gascot headed. It seems she would have you present the vellum to him.

On the one hand, it could just be a gigantic seal of approval. But markings is plural and the vellum is covered in them. Could it be an ancient written language? The "marks" of each Qestiri family in Reunion? Idk.

(Quick edit: I can't tell if that's a written word at the bottom of the Qestiri banner surrounding Reunion or a design. It's symmetrical-ish, but not exactly mirrored. So it could still be a written word?)

What I do know is that Kilieit's right about being able to make vocal sounds, just not words. I would love for a Qestir to just start screaming at the top of their lungs. It'd actually be pretty terrifying I think coming from someone who almost never makes a sound. But below, a Qestir laughs. Is the laugh a lie because they opened their mouth? Idk.

Gascot Wrote:When I danced in front of a Qestir earlier, several gathered to watch. You should have seen them, Sounsyy! They were beckoning for others to come look, pointing fingers, laughing─they loved my performance!


RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Ellmida - 07-06-2017

The man was barely tolerable  and generally only willing to listen until his life was in danger. You don't really believe anyone would be patient enough to help him draft a proposal do you, much less that he would pay attention to it.

By the way I found the part of the MSQ I was referring to in a season for War., it's a cutscene so you should be able to go back and view it. The specific words come down to "All words are lies, they do not speak"

This could mean two different things however, to the more extreme of no language exists to something as simple as 'to speak is to lie'

I believe the latter due in part that language is such a broad encompassing thing where it seems near to unrealistic to assume that this tribe does not at least have some form of communication. I would not expect them to have something as complex as Latin or Japanese but I would assume there may be at least a nuanced language structure that just doesn't use vocalizations as a method of conveying intent.

There are really good arguments for either of these ideas and I'm hoping there will be more information coming down the pipe about this in the future.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Goodfellow - 07-08-2017

Just a note on the potential for Qestir signing.  Sign languages are full languages with their own independent lexicon, syntax, etc.  Signed words aren't just signed representations of English or Eorzean words or whatever; they're words.  So if "speech is a lie," I would assume that signed speech would be equally a lie.  The written word is a bit fuzzier, but there are written systems out there that represent things other than language.  + and - are words, but they're also mathematical functions that we can represent purely symbolically without reference to language, for example.  I'd imagine Qestir symbols would tend towards the latter.

My two gil having not actually gotten to Reunion.

This is all really fun discussion, but it raises another practical question for other Qestir players: how do you present your name?  Outside of writing, which the folks here have reasonably mixed feelings about, how does your character meet people and introduce themselves?  Would names not be "words" as such and so fair game for speaking or do you just wander through life referred to by nicknames applied to you by perplexed Eorzeans?

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - shotgunbadger - 07-08-2017

I imagine that culturally names would be almost meaningless to a Qestir because, yea there's almost no way to easily share it with others. You're known for what you do. If someone needs a beast killed the tribe points to you because you did it, if they need something made they point to you because you've shown talent there, I'd figure it leads to a pretty competitive nature in a lot of them, if the only way you can be remembered is by acting and all.

As for the great writing debate, as a brand new Qestir player I play it out as a just as controversial thing for the tribe as it is OOC. Some more liberal types may be down with it, some more conservative types may hate it, it's a personal boundary thing I'd reckon. For mine she avoids writing, but if it's an absolute emergency she considers it basically an acceptable cheat for a greater good.

RE: Qestir RPpers: how do you handle communication? - Shoshopu - 07-09-2017

(06-30-2017, 03:26 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-30-2017, 03:15 PM)Rookie Judge Wrote:
(06-30-2017, 02:13 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I've mostly seen it in emoted actions, which is a lot how the NPCs do it too.

I would assume that written words would likely be treated similarly to spoken words and be considered lies, although I've seen the chalkboard/notepad method as well.

The Qestir do seem to have their own written language as shown in one of the Reunion sidequest lines. Traders are given a "piece of vellum with Qestiri markings" to show that they're allowed to trade in Reunion. Whether this shows that the Qestir allow for written words, or if it's simply an exception to accommodate foreign traders is up for interpretation.

Oddly enough, I read into that as being more as having, like... a wax seal of approval. There isn't actually Qestir language in long-form there, just them putting their stamp of approval on someone being there. More like a signature more than anything else, if that makes sense.

This is how Fyrilsunn and I interpreted it as well. He has a Qestir alt, and I'm sure if he wasn't out of town he'd have posted in this thread already. I'll let him know about it so he can put in his two cents for his own character.

To me, since it says "Qestir markings" and not "Qestir writing" or "in Qestir", it's probably just a symbol, sigil or stamp or something. Literally just a symbol to accommodate the situation and nothing more.