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+--- Thread: Primals in RP? (/showthread.php?tid=19798)
RE: Primals in RP? - Maia - 07-05-2017
(07-05-2017, 01:44 PM)Momo Wrote: I actually spoke about this very thing in a post about lore explored personal stories. Since the emergence of summoners as a job in the game, and the very beginnings of understanding primals, I sought out a loophole to allow my character to take up this job ICly. The above loophole that has been mentioned, where each City-state sends forces out to dispatch primals as they crop up over time, is the one I used myself, and one which is mentioned directly in the Ul'dah storeline dealing with Ifrit.
Jump to current expansion, we have that story that I used for my character, directly validated by the summoner MSQ. What I found to be the rarer thing, was not the survival of members necessarily, but rather the proper aetheric ability in those survivors making them rarer. Which was fine for my character, as he was a Paladin who was sent afield to help against Ifrit and so he gained the ability of a summoner.
The harder part of playing a summoner during the earlier community? When one managed to work out a story, one had to convince others that it was plausible, and after that, one had to reign in their own abilities and not be overpowered with them. Having all the summons doesn't make a lot of sense, because of the amount of ability and battle one would have to see to accomplish that or the number of ways you would need to figure out to work towards that would be a little ridiculous unless you put a lot of time into it. Having bahamut isn't out of the question, but is too OP imo, and of course certain primals aren't available period which requires an extra bit of imagination on everyone's part to make work.
Is being a summoner hard because of MSQ? I would venture in my experience: not really. Is it being a summoner made harder because there are a lot of people who either don't accept the job well in a low powered world, or RPers who can't handle reigning in their own power believable? Yes, much more so.
It's interesting to hear about the experiences of someone who's played an IC Summoner, for reals. I, myself, have no issue with people theoretically being lucky enough to summon one Egi, as you say. It's about on par with what we're shown in 4.0, so not impossible.
The reason I keep poking this thread, however, is because, as a LS leader, I need to take the temperature and feelings of 40+ people into consideration on the matter. I think your last paragraph really hit the nail on the head, to be honest. My ultimate goal is the comfort of the people in my guild: both on the side of those who find their immersion bent or broken by the presence of someone who can summon a mini Ifrit, AND the side of those who want to play an IC Summoner without feeling like others are avoiding/ignoring them based on their character's IC job class. It's a very tricky line to walk with many of the advanced job classes, with Summoners being around the top of the list in terms of how people perceive characters with those abilities.
Again, I personally agree that summoning one Egi for an average-ish adventurer type is plausible with the right backstory. But if the general consensus sways a different direction, I just have to do what's best for the comfort of my existing LS members. Your insight is interesting though, and it sounds like you haven't had -too- much trouble making connections, most likely due to the restraint and responsible considerations you've taken with your character's path to becoming one (which is good!)
RE: Primals in RP? - Valence - 07-06-2017
I guess I would have to skim through all the precise quotes about the GCs sending regularly their mean to the slaughter to go fight primals that would crop up here and there on a regular basis...
I got the exact opposite vibes from the story. We get it mentionned several times for the Company of Heroes, that used to face a few primals during the time where the WoL wasn't a thing and slaying eikons.Â
Beats tribes start summoning primals during the 1.0 MSQ and the Ashcrown Consortium takes the brunt of it, where their relations were pretty cordial and business like before (they didn't summon primals before).
It takes gargantuan amounts of crystals to summon primals, which isn't a thing that can occur on a regular basis.Â
From the feeling I got when the Company of Heroes tells about their past deeds, Titan and Leviathan got summoned once/twice maybe?
It had been long years (or more) when a primal had to be faced by Limsa when they tell the story. This is such a catastrophe that it sticks in memories for decades.
Then, a few more cases happen during ARR, HW, etc, where the WoL is basically there to deal with them.
In short, unless I find a specific lore burb/quote I missed (very possible!), I don't believe that besides what the story portrays, there is summoning of primals everywhere on a regular basis.
Tristan from the SMN storyline is an interesting case though. If I remember correctly that guy was exposed to primal energies not because he was part of a company fighting them, but due to a drama that got his brother. Fighting primals is far from being the only way to become a SMN.
RE: Primals in RP? - Maia - 07-06-2017
(07-06-2017, 07:33 AM)Valence Wrote: I guess I would have to skim through all the precise quotes about the GCs sending regularly their mean to the slaughter to go fight primals that would crop up here and there on a regular basis...
I got the exact opposite vibes from the story. We get it mentionned several times for the Company of Heroes, that used to face a few primals during the time where the WoL wasn't a thing and slaying eikons.Â
Beats tribes start summoning primals during the 1.0 MSQ and the Ashcrown Consortium takes the brunt of it, where their relations were pretty cordial and business like before (they didn't summon primals before).
It takes gargantuan amounts of crystals to summon primals, which isn't a thing that can occur on a regular basis.Â
From the feeling I got when the Company of Heroes tells about their past deeds, Titan and Leviathan got summoned once/twice maybe?
It had been long years (or more) when a primal had to be faced by Limsa when they tell the story. This is such a catastrophe that it sticks in memories for decades.
Then, a few more cases happen during ARR, HW, etc, where the WoL is basically there to deal with them.
In short, unless I find a specific lore burb/quote I missed (very possible!), I don't believe that besides what the story portrays, there is summoning of primals everywhere on a regular basis.
Tristan from the SMN storyline is an interesting case though. If I remember correctly that guy was exposed to primal energies not because he was part of a company fighting them, but due to a drama that got his brother. Fighting primals is far from being the only way to become a SMN.
You bring up some interesting points! But in Tristan's case, wasn't he able to become a Summoner via Ascian direction/tampering? I could be misremembering, but I thought there was some otherworldly being setting those gears into motion.
Another thing I've noticed regarding Primals is the lore found within the EX Primal quests. Based on what those quests say, the Primals that exist today are exponentially more powerful than pre-WoL Primals. The quests make a big deal about how every time the Primals are killed, the beastmen summon an even stronger iteration in response. So it implies that each Primal slaying actually harms the overall good, since each subsequent felling prompts the beastmen to summon an even stronger entity next time, ad infinitum.
So does this imply that the Primals who exist today are much, much, much stronger than the ones the Company of Heroes faced before, since the beastmen grow wiser and more desperate/zealous with each iteration?
RE: Primals in RP? - Gegenji - 07-06-2017
And a lot more crystals involved. Remember, Gilgamesh was able to summon a Primal version of his little buddy with just a crate of crystals and wanting his friend a whole lot.
I suppose it makes sense they're summoning progressively stronger versions to some degree too, you know? That's your god the WoL is beating up. Are you going to believe your god is weaker than some mortal being or that you just didn't provide enough offering to summon them in their "true form"? Add in tempering to add to that zealousness and, well... it just keeps going.
The only limiting factors, I suppose, are how much aether (via crystals or other means - like Nidhogg's eyes) you can attain and how many followers you can gather.
RE: Primals in RP? - L'ohba Tia - 07-06-2017
(07-06-2017, 07:33 AM)Valence Wrote: I guess I would have to skim through all the precise quotes about the GCs sending regularly their mean to the slaughter to go fight primals that would crop up here and there on a regular basis...
I got the exact opposite vibes from the story. We get it mentionned several times for the Company of Heroes, that used to face a few primals during the time where the WoL wasn't a thing and slaying eikons.Â
Beats tribes start summoning primals during the 1.0 MSQ and the Ashcrown Consortium takes the brunt of it, where their relations were pretty cordial and business like before (they didn't summon primals before).
It takes gargantuan amounts of crystals to summon primals, which isn't a thing that can occur on a regular basis.Â
From the feeling I got when the Company of Heroes tells about their past deeds, Titan and Leviathan got summoned once/twice maybe?
It had been long years (or more) when a primal had to be faced by Limsa when they tell the story. This is such a catastrophe that it sticks in memories for decades.
Then, a few more cases happen during ARR, HW, etc, where the WoL is basically there to deal with them.
In short, unless I find a specific lore burb/quote I missed (very possible!), I don't believe that besides what the story portrays, there is summoning of primals everywhere on a regular basis.
Tristan from the SMN storyline is an interesting case though. If I remember correctly that guy was exposed to primal energies not because he was part of a company fighting them, but due to a drama that got his brother. Fighting primals is far from being the only way to become a SMN.
The Immortal Flames are the only company that send out primal parties with any regularity. Ifrit is summoned constantly because of how brainwashed the Amalj'aa are compared to other tribes. They even have a plaque for people who succeeded. I'd also advise everyone in the thread to do the 60-70 SMN questline in regards to this.
RE: Primals in RP? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-06-2017
I feel as though I'm late to this discussion but iirc, wasn't Leviathan a threat prior at some point that a certain beard of mist variety had to battle against? Something about him fighting the borders of Limsa but in WoL's time, being too smart to fall for that trick again.
We also need to keep in mind of the difference of Elder primals between just regular primals. Odin's tempering being unique is of course one example but then there's also cases such as...
I mention all this, mostly because most primals seem to temper and that's that... game over. Otherwise in some special cases, it seems like killing the primal or the person tempered would relinquish their possession.
RE: Primals in RP? - Mermaid - 07-07-2017
(07-06-2017, 11:15 PM)Valic Wrote: I feel as though I'm late to this discussion but iirc, wasn't Leviathan a threat prior at some point that a certain beard of mist variety had to battle against? Something about him fighting the borders of Limsa but in WoL's time, being too smart to fall for that trick again.
If I remember correctly it was the Company of Heroes luring him into a cove or something so they could fight him that he wouldn't fall for again. The Mistbeard thing was him tying two boats together to haul in his plunder and we borrowed that idea to haul a bunch of corrupted crystals into the ocean to fight him.
(07-06-2017, 11:15 PM)Valic Wrote: I mention all this, mostly because most primals seem to temper and that's that... game over. Otherwise in some special cases, it seems like killing the primal or the person tempered would relinquish their possession.
But really this was the reason I commented because in Stormblood...
Contrast this to after we beat Ifrit where I'm pretty sure an NPC tell us that all the people who got tempered will have to be put down because there's no cure for it. There's also the little Kobold in 3.4 who was suspected to be irreversibly tempered when he didn't talk.
There really might be some inconsistency but I can't be sure.
RE: Primals in RP? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-07-2017
(07-07-2017, 01:05 AM)Mermaid Wrote: WEW *snip*All of that area with Leviathan is such a blur to me now x.x, that sounds right now that you bring it up though.
As for SB...
As for the Kobold... he did speak though, and I think someone mentioned that Titan doesn't temper. Titan's born of fear and lack of strength after all, but that whole area of 3.4 was meant to show how powerful a ton of crystals and just one person's will is. That was why Titan speaks through his words and etc but after a long while after, he finally spoke back to Y'shtola confirming that he'll be strong. He was just in a complete wreck of watching his parents become... "charcoal for the fire" iirc?Q.Q... If you're referring to that Kobold I mean, otherwise I'm not sure.
RE: Primals in RP? - Mermaid - 07-07-2017
(07-07-2017, 01:28 AM)Valic Wrote: As for SB...
As for the Kobold... he did speak though, and I think someone mentioned that Titan doesn't temper. Titan's born of fear and lack of strength after all, but that whole area of 3.4 was meant to show how powerful a ton of crystals and just one person's will is. That was why Titan speaks through his words and etc but after a long while after, he finally spoke back to Y'shtola confirming that he'll be strong. He was just in a complete wreck of watching his parents become... "charcoal for the fire" iirc?Q.Q... If you're referring to that Kobold I mean, otherwise I'm not sure.
Yeah, that Kobold. Ba Gu I think? He did talk eventually but before that there was the big scare when the Maelstrom officer told Alisaie they'd have to put him down if it turned out he was tempered.
RE: Primals in RP? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-07-2017
(07-07-2017, 03:19 AM)Mermaid Wrote:Idk honestly XD, but I can't argue that I love the new tribes :p.(07-07-2017, 01:28 AM)Valic Wrote: As for SB...
As for the Kobold... he did speak though, and I think someone mentioned that Titan doesn't temper. Titan's born of fear and lack of strength after all, but that whole area of 3.4 was meant to show how powerful a ton of crystals and just one person's will is. That was why Titan speaks through his words and etc but after a long while after, he finally spoke back to Y'shtola confirming that he'll be strong. He was just in a complete wreck of watching his parents become... "charcoal for the fire" iirc?Q.Q... If you're referring to that Kobold I mean, otherwise I'm not sure.
Yeah, that Kobold. Ba Gu I think? He did talk eventually but before that there was the big scare when the Maelstrom officer told Alisaie they'd have to put him down if it turned out he was tempered.
I think it's just because we all assumed that was what was wrong with him for not eating/sleeping/talking/etc. Also I remembered that wrong, it was Alisae I think, not Y'shtola lol. That still really leaves us wondering about the qualities of tempering though x.x.
RE: Primals in RP? - Sounsyy - 07-07-2017
(07-07-2017, 03:34 AM)Valic Wrote: That still really leaves us wondering about the qualities of tempering though x.x.
Here's a pretty comprehensive post going over what we know of Tempering and its effects. In regards to why some are able to recover somewhat after a first-tempering experience, it's because tempering isn't always a one-and-done deal. Depending upon the dose of the primal's aether a person receives affects how quickly one becomes tempered. Thancred later hints that susceptibility to tempering may even be affected by the victim's anima or aetherial fortitude.
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(07-07-2017, 01:28 AM)Valic Wrote: I think someone mentioned that Titan doesn't temper.
Sidenote that every Primal has the ability to temper, though not all of them choose to as frequently as others. This includes Titan:
R’ashaht Rhiki Wrote:We Maelstrom officers would, of course, like naught better than to shatter the belligerent old boulder ourselves, but we cannot risk losing our soldiers to tempering. Once again, we must turn to the seasoned veterans of the Scions.
Alphinaud Wrote:He is almost certainly still in shock, but… But we cannot discount the possibility that he succumbed to the primal’s influence. Should that prove to be the case─
Alisaie Wrote:He must be put to death, like any other thrall. Such is the Alliance’s policy, yes?
Commander Bloeidin Wrote:Judgin’ by what the little feller said, I doubt he’s been corrupted. Sayin’ that, we’ll keep him close till we’ve heard a bit more─just to be on the safe side.
Wheiskaet Wrote:Pardon? You wish to slay the Lord of Crags? A woman who can’t be tempered? Useful…but it will not be enough. It is true that the Company of Heroes fought and felled primals─but each victory was bought with the lifeblood of brave men and women. And Titan was the worst we faced. Aye, we defeated him─in the end─but he took from us some of our very best. Even if you possess the power you claim, I have no reason to believe you will succeed.
Encyclopedia Eorzea - The 789th Order Dig Wrote:…Unsurprisingly perhaps, these pariahs are not permitted an audience with the Lord of Crags, and thus their ranks are free of fanatics enthralled by the primal’s influence.
RE: Primals in RP? - Yian Kutku - 07-08-2017
(07-07-2017, 10:29 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Sidenote that every Primal has the ability to temper, though not all of them choose to as frequently as others.
I forget whether I read it in in-game dialogue or in a speculative forum post, but I think there was some mention that the Ishgardians were afraid the heretics had been tempered (frozen?) by Shiva, and were relieved to find that Shiva had not tempered anyone; the heretics followed Lady Iceheart because they wanted to.
Other Primals who did not temper are King Moggle Mog, and Enkidu of dubious canonicity.
Moggle Mog was summoned by the Mogglesguard of the Twelveswood Moogles. Judging from the circumstances of his re-summoning for Extreme, the Mogglesguard did not summon his Extreme mode because they were tempered, but merely because Kuplo Kopp tried to lecture them and they got pissy.
Having said that, the quest for the regular Hard version does mention the possibility that Moggle Mog would temper the Moogles eventually, so it's still possible. Also apparently Moggle Mog was first summoned back in 1.0, but I don't have any details on that.
I don't even know what's going on with Enkidu.
RE: Primals in RP? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-08-2017
Also wanted to ask about what the deal with the boss of Xephatol is doing summoning Garuda so easily... and then she just poofs?
RE: Primals in RP? - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-09-2017
(07-08-2017, 11:51 PM)Valic Wrote: Also wanted to ask about what the deal with the boss of Xephatol is doing summoning Garuda so easily... and then she just poofs?
it's a final fantasy game
summons have always been a thing
RE: Primals in RP? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-09-2017
(07-09-2017, 02:05 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote:But by those means, can anyone summon any primal with just a little aether and will at any time? Not just summoners/arcanists?(07-08-2017, 11:51 PM)Valic Wrote: Also wanted to ask about what the deal with the boss of Xephatol is doing summoning Garuda so easily... and then she just poofs?
it's a final fantasy game
summons have always been a thing
What's sustaining their existence or keeping them from going berserk to have their own will to obliterate everyone around them or drain every source of aether in sight? In every other case of a direct summon (and not summoner's wanabee chicken nugg titan/garuda/ifrit/etc), has been the result of intense will + aether crystals/aether in general that summons the likes of a near self righteous god into the world. In his case, he just summoned her for a bit and she goes back in just a few moments.... What's the difference here? Just intended purpose/will or amount of aether?