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+--- Thread: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion (/showthread.php?tid=18784)
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Star Lin - 04-13-2017
This actually works out really well then as I've already have it that John's and Tanya's Dad, Thomas, is from the Abalathia's Spine. Shoot, I have to go and do a tumblr post then for Tanya to really start setting this up.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Vexander - 05-18-2017
(04-10-2017, 04:31 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Remember Sharlayans forbid by law the teaching of disciplines of war to outsiders. It's easy to think of them as peaceful teachers of knowledge, but they're not - they're isolationists who avoid having a hand in the outcome of a given war, even indirectly (by way of teaching one of its sides a new discipline). They would much rather stand by, watch thousands of people die, then write it all down. So although there were many classes available to foreign students, classes in astromancy were not among them.
This is a bit of a misunderstanding.
Sharlayans did teach outsiders the way of Astromancy, the elezen in Ishgard uses that magic, despite not being Sharlayan. There is a faction of Sharlayans known as the Bibliothecs who are fiercely isolationist and strictly against sharing any Sharlayan knowledge, though in particularly through the AST Job Quests, we see them focusing on Astrology. I imagine they hate the Scions incredibly.
That said, they're only a faction, not the dominant force ruling Sharlayan. As per the Lorebook, we know its Louisoix's Son who holds sway in the Forums right now, and his philosophy is that while Sharlayan as a nation will not intervene in the events of history as they unfold, every individual is free to pursue whatever path they wish. This is why the Scions of the Seventh Dawn haven't been dragged back to Old Sharlayan and put on Trial yet, and also why Alisae and Alphinaud were able to come to Eorzea to follow in their grandfather's footsteps.
The above having been said, I was pretty disappointed to learn that Red Mage is coming from Gyr Abania of all places. Considering the Lore Book notes that Sharlayan was founded by survivors of Amdapor and Mhach as well, one would figure it'd be the logical place. Making it Ala Mhigan feels like SE trying to go to the playerbase, "See, Stormblood isn't ALL about Doma! Ala Mhigo is getting a new Job too!"
Given all the FFXI references so far for Stormblood, I'm expecting the Red Mage village in Gyr Abania to be named, Thamasa.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Gegenji - 05-18-2017
(05-18-2017, 03:15 PM)Vexander Wrote: Given all the FFXI references so far for Stormblood, I'm expecting the Red Mage village in Gyr Abania to be named, Thamasa.
![[Image: 191809-strago.jpg]](https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4358/191809-strago.jpg)
Thamasa you say...? But there's no one who uses magic in Thamasa! What're you talking about?
(Actually the town being called Thamasa would be an amazing callback if it were true just based on what Thamasa in FF6 is. I want it to be true now.)
In all seriousness, wasn't the type of Astrology taught to the Ishgardians a different kind than the one that is being spread in the AST questline? I vaguely remember that being the sort of sticking point - "Ishgardian" Astrology helps forewarn of Dravanian attacks and the like and is generally passive and non-combatant. Meanwhile, "Sharlayan" Astrology is actually utilizing the power of the stars in an actual combat medium - which is a no-no for teaching according the Sharlayan principle.
So it wasn't that Astrology was being spread that was the problem, but it was the combat-oriented style of it. Or at least, that's how I recall it. I could be wrong.
... Also I totally thought Sharlayan would be where RDMs would've been from as well, even before the revelation of it being wrought of practitioners of both White and Black magic. I guess having two combat styles slip to the world from Sharlayan would've been too much for them to bear.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Virella - 05-18-2017
As far as we know the Sharlayan Scions aren't actively teaching people though. The Astrologian quest revolves around the fact that this NPC in particular is very insistent about it, despite Sharlayan's wishes that she would not.
I don't think Sharlayans have an issue with their countrymen and women travelling. Far from I imagine. The more knowledge gained the better. They just appear to draw the line at actively sharing knowledge they possess.
Still curious to see how she managed to get her hands onto it though. For all we know it is a lost art stored by the Sharlayans. Then again, she vanished for quite a while in the MSQ. So well uh. Who knows?
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Vexander - 05-18-2017
The Scions do teach the Warrior of Light a few things, though arguably those might not be strictly Sharlayan. Such as the workings of aether back in the 2.X series. However you cannot deny granting the Warrior of Light access to Matoya's research on Aetheric Convergence, as well as the Anti-Tower of all places, certainly constitutes sharing Sharlayan knowledge with an outsider.
The difference between Ishgardian Astrologians and Sharlayan Astrologians primarily seems to be that the Ishgardian Astrologians focus on reading the stars to predict the future and completely ignore the magical aspect. If I'm remembering the quests correctly, the magical aspect was deemed borderline heretical because it did not come from Ishgard. That's another reason it was vastly unpopular amongst Ishgardians when Jannequinard kept trying to introduce it to Ishgard because of the good it could do.
That said, it seems to be the Bibliothecs who are against sharing knowledge with outsiders, particularly any knowledge with tangible affects on history, like magical knowledge. The Sons of Saint Coinach are another group of Sharlayans who do not seem to have an issue working with non-Sharlayans, though that seems to be less a case of them sharing specifically Sharlayan knowledge, and more them sharing knowledge about the Allagans they've uncovered.
I mean, put it this way. If the Sharlayans as a whole were dead-set against using their knowledge to assist other nations, then the Aetheryte Networks would've never been constructed.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Virella - 05-18-2017
I think it is due to Astrologians being insanely powerful they do not want Eorzeans, these days, to gain access to it. Next to that, I can see in their eyes little gain for them to teach that type of knowledge to outsiders. Astrologians, even if roleplayers tend to just see them (and roleplay them) as cutesy fortune-tellers, are well. Time mages to some degree.
Think they are more preventive at this point to prevent more damage being done by the Eorzeans, especially when people could start manipulating fates and damaging themselves, if not people around them in the long run. Eorzeans aren't the brightest of the bunch to be found. Perhaps they don't have qualms with minor things, or preventing issues on a larger scale, but teaching the average Eorzean potentially extremely dangerous magic after all what happened? They are not so okay with that (any more).
We also don't know if Matoya told the rest of the Sharlayans about this. For all we know she was instructed not to, but gone ahead anyhow due to personal reasons. Because the Warrior of Wildly Unlikely Exceptions of Light. The other Sharlayans may not be aware of what happened there.
I think it still very much depends on what and why for Sharlayans, given from what we've seen, yes. If it is relatively harmless and they can gain knowledge out of it themselves? They are probably a lot more lenient. Just restricted things they do not want shared. And beyond Astrologian magic, we don't know what that is.
Anyhow, going to stop posting here, seeming I don't want to derail the thread. If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to make another thread on it!
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Vexander - 05-18-2017
Good post, and good point.
To more Red Mage speculation! If the little settlement of Red Mages somewhere in Gyr Abania is actually named Thamasa, I totally expect (hope) that as part of the Job Quests for 60-70, we have to hunt down and take down Hidon. If not, perhaps Hidon will feature in the new Hildebrand Quests, like Ultros did back in the 2.X Hildebrand series.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Arashin Kujqai - 05-24-2017
Friends and I have come up with a few theories for "rdm lore friendliness" as well as how red magic works.
According to.... just a friend I spoke to, the concept of white and black mana as explained for the job is quite possibly a new real concept. Considering the gauge fills up black/white and then let's you use red, my other friend and I have speculated that red magic is the discipline of enchanting your sword using the two types of mana.
Now, what is white and black mana in this sense? My other friend and I have some theories, like perhaps there's a form of aetherial residue on magic gathered through white and black magic disciplines that the red mage can gather together into his crystal like a filter to combine together. Then store those two manas together to charge their sword to an extent. We also think this is because of their lore setting aside their differences and picking up the sword since the magi war nearly caused both black and white mages to wipe out in that flood. I guess they kinda went "maybe we should stop being stupid and just fight together" and decided to pick up a different route of magic.
Another thing I thought might've been interesting is that, I believe this method of magic is meant to be more safe and not provoke anyone but think about a certain somebody real quick....
With Alisae as a red mage, I'm likely to believe she just picked this trait up as if it was a regular art too. Considering all the main characters are typically lore friendly and not exactly a specific job,(maybe not counting Estinien). With Y'shtola as the generic healer but mostly scholar, Thancred as the generic rogue, Yugiri a ninja, Alphinaud a arcanist, perhaps Alisae's red mage transformation is an indication that red magic is more of an accepted discipline that is to be taught to all. Perhaps to make peace and settlements once and for all. Alisae also seems like another "special snowflake" type to me with how she originally obtained her sword, it's possible she learned her own method somehow while she was away.
Overall I'm hoping at least some of this is true because I'd really hate to have another magic based job that has such high standards of becoming/obtaining like black and white mages are. Not only that but giving aether more properties like this is vastly interesting, more-so than just knowing the disciplines at least.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Vexander - 05-24-2017
Ilberd's techniques always struck me more as a Blue Mage thing, given they were all named after beasts and such. Same with Raubahn and his moves. Given in FFXI Raubahn was the leader of the Immortal Lions, an order of Blue Mages, I wouldn't be surprised if Blue Magic was an Ala Mhigan thing.
As for Red Mage and Alisae, the books she and Alphinaud received from Louisoix were more than Arcanist tomes, as he told them that when used together, they would unlocked hidden powers and knowledge. It could be Alisae becoming a Red Mage is a result of that. The question then is, what knowledge is contained in Alphinaud's book, and why hasn't he used it yet?
Its also possible Sharlayan has knowledge on Red Mages and Red Magic, or developed a form of it for themselves. Perhaps Sharlayan and Thamasa were in contact prior to the Garlean Occupation of Ala Mhigo.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Jeanne IX - 05-25-2017
This may have been pointed out before, but I just got the Encyclopaedia Eorzea today and noticed on page 47 it says Sharlayan was founded when Archon Nyunkrepf led people away from the chaos of Gyr Abania. The Red Mage info on the website does not actually say Ala Mhigo, just Gyr Abania, so it may be the Red Mages were part of Nyunkrepf's group that went to Sharlayan, thus explaining the RDM aesthetic being more fancy than you'd expect from Ala Mhigo?
Though truth be told I don't expect that, since the expansion will actually be going to Ala Mhigo so a Job from there would make sense.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Vexander - 05-25-2017
(05-25-2017, 12:55 AM)Jeanne IX Wrote: This may have been pointed out before, but I just got the Encyclopaedia Eorzea today and noticed on page 47 it says Sharlayan was founded when Archon Nyunkrepf led people away from the chaos of Gyr Abania. The Red Mage info on the website does not actually say Ala Mhigo, just Gyr Abania, so it may be the Red Mages were part of Nyunkrepf's group that went to Sharlayan, thus explaining the RDM aesthetic being more fancy than you'd expect from Ala Mhigo?
Though truth be told I don't expect that, since the expansion will actually be going to Ala Mhigo so a Job from there would make sense.
It'd make a bit more sense at least. However, I have to agree, I just can't see it being the case. Then again, I -can- see Red Mage being a Gyr Abanian Job that has absolutely nothing to do with Ala Mhigo, and I kind of expect that to be honest, since Red Mages had no know role in any of the events affecting Ala Mhigo. It was always the Monks that were center stage.
It's not as though Heavensward introduced exclusively Ishgardian jobs. Astrologian as we play it is strictly Sharlayan, and Machinist is a blend of Ishgardian ingenuity and Magitech ala Cid's Ironworks.
Really interested in learning more lore, particularly Alisae's Red Mage lore. WTB a Short Story on that.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Arashin Kujqai - 06-03-2017
So with the combined efforts of some theorists, the red mage discord, and Fan'rei Shain who also typed most of this up with me. We've devised a theory of the RDM lore as well as the functions of their weapon. Below is a document that lists the mechanics of the rdm which then delves into our theories combined with how red magic as a discipline is enforced as well as other neat theories. Please have a look and tell us your thoughts!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uSWxIOqJ4XY9CSt-5l0hKLEn7geEbInGq8Ej5_FsZt4/edit
Also includes the picture of their job stone and some qwerky humor here and there as we had a lot of fun discussing their lore concepts. We appreciate any feedback anyone can provide or any other theories to be thought of.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Sylentmana - 06-05-2017
(06-03-2017, 07:49 PM)Valic Wrote: So with the combined efforts of some theorists, the red mage discord, and Fan'rei Shain who also typed most of this up with me. We've devised a theory of the RDM lore as well as the functions of their weapon. Below is a document that lists the mechanics of the rdm which then delves into our theories combined with how red magic as a discipline is enforced as well as other neat theories. Please have a look and tell us your thoughts!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uSWxIOqJ4XY9CSt-5l0hKLEn7geEbInGq8Ej5_FsZt4/edit
Also includes the picture of their job stone and some qwerky humor here and there as we had a lot of fun discussing their lore concepts. We appreciate any feedback anyone can provide or any other theories to be thought of.
I love your idea of red magic being a discipline rather than an actual form of magic. I'm really looking forward to this job.
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - Jeanne IX - 06-16-2017
Here's some stuff the RDM questgiver had to say:
RE: RDM Lore Hypotheses and Discussion - LiadansWhisper - 06-16-2017
Apparently SE doesn't want any screenshots of Stormblood until it releases on Tuesday, so you may want to remove that.