Hydaelyn Role-Players
When joining a FC becomes a job - Printable Version

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RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Aurou - 02-21-2017

(02-21-2017, 02:51 PM)Arietty Wrote: That's the entire 'theme' of the application process. Fitting in. I want my FC to be a close knit community where drama happens rarely and can be settled quickly and quietly. We're all here to play the game after all and if we're not having fun than why bother? When I first started to play I was in a FC or two that had drama and it made things unpleasant, so I prefer FC's that take some time to get to know a prospective member than not.

This is pretty much the reason for our application being a more involved one - we want to make sure that people fit in and personalities won't clash. Our application has saved us a few times, some people get salty as hell and show true colors when denied. A majority are very sweet and take denial with grace and understanding, but the ones that don't... the hate is real. It really makes you wonder what would happen had person X been allowed into the FC and got into a disagreement or something went sour.


The couple open invite groups that I've been in had more than their fair share of drama and headbutting that I don't care to revisit again. Those groups ended up feeling like a chore or job to be involved in.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-21-2017

(02-21-2017, 02:12 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-21-2017, 02:08 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: Part of me feels irritated when I see people posting invitations to join a FC then saying "go to our website to submit an application" or "contact an officer for an interview." I can't help but think, if you're the one seeking members, then why should they have to bow to you and what you want? However, I have seen how the wrong member can get in and fleece a FC for everything they've got, so I kind of understand why they have these processes.

I suppose I don't see why that would be irritating. I think that sort of stuff is just to bring attention to their FC so that people know it's there to attempt to apply for it. It's advertising - and even businesses that are advertising open job slots will still require the potential new employee to come interview and show their skill sets if necessary.

I'd be personally more bothered by the FCs that invite anyone and everyone and use their bloated numbers as some sort of a status symbol. "We've got over 500 members!" Yay you. Laugh

^ It's an advertisement, and not an invitation to join. Similarly that if you see a product advertised on TV, you still have to go to the store and buy it, have the funds for it, etc. It can be difficult for FC's to get noticed or attract recruits, especially if they're newer or smaller, relatively unknown in the community, etc.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Arcian - 02-23-2017

(02-21-2017, 10:40 PM)Aurou Wrote: This is pretty much the reason for our application being a more involved one - we want to make sure that people fit in and personalities won't clash. Our application has saved us a few times, some people get salty as hell and show true colors when denied. A majority are very sweet and take denial with grace and understanding, but the ones that don't... the hate is real. It really makes you wonder what would happen had person X been allowed into the FC and got into a disagreement or something went sour.


The couple open invite groups that I've been in had more than their fair share of drama and headbutting that I don't care to revisit again. Those groups ended up feeling like a chore or job to be involved in.

Aurou basically hit it on the head as far as I'm concerned - if someone's a salty douchebag, I'd rather find out before they have the chance to cause drama.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Askier - 02-23-2017

(02-21-2017, 04:32 AM)Aaron Wrote: [Image: CyFyMRL.jpg]

Lol on topic though can't say I had that problem. The FC's I've been in I was always a special case or personally invited so I never had to do any apps. But it sounds pretty much like a job interview now which depending on your time investment in the game can or can not be taken the wrong way. I know the REALLY dramatic people even get offended by it when they aren't accepted iirc

Can I have the guy who was at the gym? Cause if the barbarians are at the gate, screw inner strength, I want the guy who can throw a hard punch. Lol.

As for FC'S, I think applications are okay and I see why they are done. Now what I don't get is when being in an FC or guild becomes a job. I hear horror stories all the time about how raiding and running a guild becomes a second job with almost weekly hours you have to put in. That, to me, is nuts.

And defiantly why I never raid. Lol.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Kilieit - 02-23-2017

(02-23-2017, 06:13 PM)Askier Wrote: I hear horror stories all the time about how raiding and running a guild becomes a second job with almost weekly hours you have to put in. That, to me, is nuts.

Running a guild kind of has to be, though - not like a job job where you put 40 hours a week in, but... barring casual social guilds that only really include an existing friend group...

If you don't have the spare time to be online for - bare minimum, IMO - an hour a day and at least four hours for one night per week (so 10 hours a week), to handle organisation, promotion, disciplinary and roster matters, and run or at least organise an activity (be that roleplay, progression raiding, Aquapolis runs, running roulettes together, PvP night, bird farm, workshop shenanigans, anything), then running a guild is probably not for you.

Inactive guild leaders strangle their guilds, no matter how active their members are. Simply the fact of the guild leader constantly being busy starts breeding a sense of the guild being neglected and of members' time not being valued (because the leader can't be bothered to log on and spend theirs with them). It usually leads to an officer or even a regular member acting as de-facto leader, without any of the tools or support, which breeds resentment. And it usually ends in either the leader being replaced (either by another leader or by a team of officers), or the guild crumbling.

I think sometimes people don't realise that yes, running a guild is something only certain types of individuals can do. And while there's still a broad variety of what those individuals can be like in terms of interests and personality, it's not an "anyone can do it" type of deal. Time requirements is one of the things that can exclude people from successfully filling the role, even if they're otherwise suited.

whoops I wrote 4 paragraphs and it looks like I'm annoyed but actually I just have a lot of thoughts on this subject and wanted them to be clear

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Parvacake - 02-23-2017

The application process for most FCs is, honestly, pretty straight forward and simple. Personally I feel the OP was a little dramatic. I've ran and joined guilds/FCs/clans/etc. across MMOs and most of the time they all share the same simple questions.
  • What is your character like?
  • What are you focusing on in the game? Check all that apply. (RP, PvE, PvP, etc.)
  • Give us a snippet of your RP style in a small post. (Sometimes they even provide a prompt to make it easier)
There. Three main questions. Extras are usually tossed in there like 'How long have you been playing the game' or 'What section of the FC would your character fit in ICly' which tend to be easy to answer unless you have a new character. I've rarely seen an application that has taken me more then 10-15 minutes to answer.

The exceptions to that 10-15 minutes is typically in the form of more hardcore guilds that are easy enough to spot by their application alone or their adverts. Whichever comes first.

If it takes officers/whoever is in charge of looking at apps more then 2-3 days to get a hold of you? Or to have someone message you be like 'Hey, we know you sent an app but need to take care of a thing or two first'? Move on. Look at another FC. Don't sweat the small stuff.

I repeat.

Don't. Sweat. The. Small. Stuff.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-23-2017

Our application process is pretty involved due to people in the past basically lying to get in, which made us have to get stricter to try to weed that out. But for us it comes down to:

~ We want to make sure you're lore compliant. Lore is fun for US, but it doesn't have to be fun for you. If the idea of that seems restricting, there are other FC's out there. NBD.

~ We... one time one of my guild members said, quite rightly "The NB is 50% shade, 50% getting injured in RP." We aren't what I would call "nice". We're good people, but we aren't a hugbox. We like to keep the mentality that RP is basically a TV show - which includes people shouting at the screen. We will make fun of your characters, we will make fun of the for "doing something dumb", we will discuss plot lines and sometimes it won't always be polite. It's not out of malice, we really like our stories and our members' characters, but no one is exempt from (what we call) Bad Decision Island. We find a lot of people say they can handle it, but then don't like their characters being questioned at all. Some can't handle that atmosphere and we've taken to constantly reiterating "We throw shade at all characters" constantly before anyone gets in. No one is exempt, even my character has the nickname "Knife rack" OOCly.

~ We make sure characters aren't too above others in Power Level. So that requires a lot of questions.

It's actually really hard to know if someone is going to vibe with any guild, really. You're always taking a risk of upsetting the current Status Quo whenever you bring ANYONE new in and, especially for RP guilds, that is a risk that could lead to the death of a guild. So we tend to be more careful than social guilds because we have more to lose. I can see the app process being annoying as shit if you're just looking for some chill times, but you gotta see it from the other angle.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-23-2017

(02-21-2017, 01:47 PM)Nebbs Wrote: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar"  .. and isn't finding new members the reason a FC recruits?

To some people, an FC that screens its members as best as possible and weeds out the ones who won't mesh well is honey more than filling out an application is vinegar. Not to mention, most FC's aren't trying to get every fly in the game, only the best flies. Quality flies over quantity flies.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-23-2017

We're only trying to catch the shadiest flies.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Uther - 02-24-2017

A real point of miscommunication I've noticed from casually browsing this thread (and I say casually because I haven't read every post, so it may have been stated already) is that OP is looking at FC applications the same way one would look at a standard FC/guild application in an MMO for a non-RP group. In these instances, you just kind of grab as many people as you can, essentially getting every able-bodied person who can run a raid or do pvp or whatever so that you can do those things at any time and keep the FC/guild from stagnating or plateauing when it comes to completing game content. The difference with a roleplaying group is that you want to test and interview everyone coming in to make sure they're not shitsters, or even if they're not shitsters and seem like nice people, you want to make sure they'd fit into your theme or existing dynamic. When my FC was more active than it is today, we met plenty of nice people who were interested in joining, but they had a different view of RP than we did, whether that was a difference in how we viewed the game's tone or how we handled situations or simply where our characters' stories looked like they were headed. 

I agree that some FCs (well, lets say guilds, because I got into this FC in beta and haven't left, so I only have this experience in other MMOs) go a bit over-the-top and don't seem to get that there's always the /gkick function if they invite someone who turns into a lunatic once they're invited, and a lot of times guild leaders needs to calm down and roll the dice once in a while, but there are a lot of shitposters, meta-gamers, god-moders, lore-breakers, and genuinely bad roleplayers out there and you can't blame a guild leader for wanting to deal with them before they're in their guild chat.

Back to my point on paragraph 1, since I went off-course there for a little: FCs don't need a necessarily large player base, so long as they get the right player base for the way they want to play pretend. A lot aren't recruiting at all most of the time.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Kilieit - 02-24-2017

(02-24-2017, 12:30 AM)Uther Wrote: I agree that some FCs (well, lets say guilds, because I got into this FC in beta and haven't left, so I only have this experience in other MMOs) go a bit over-the-top and don't seem to get that there's always the /gkick function if they invite someone who turns into a lunatic once they're invited, and a lot of times guild leaders needs to calm down and roll the dice once in a while, but there are a lot of shitposters, meta-gamers, god-moders, lore-breakers, and genuinely bad roleplayers out there and you can't blame a guild leader for wanting to deal with them before they're in their guild chat.

Bolding mine. I think this is an interesting point - in my experience, a lot of FC leaders are borderline phobic of the /gkick.

I've been in the position myself of needing to make a gkick of a member who has exceeded their maximum allowed number of conduct infractions and need to be shown the door. I've also been in the position of needing to kick someone who is being so abusive, in guild chat, right now, that they need to be removed immediately for the mental health and emotional wellbeing of the other members.

I feel like... people think... a gkick is only "justified" if it's the latter sort of extreme situation? And forget to either include or enforce rules that say "we may ask you to leave if you're not fitting in" (which is essentially what "this member has made 3 conduct infractions in the last month" is telling you). They try to pre-emptively prevent the situation ever coming about through interviews and trial periods, which is just... not always feasible.

It was definitely easier for me to kick Mr Abusive. It was also easier for me to handle the fallout... or lack thereof. Enough people had witnessed it that there were no "he was kicked unfairly" rumours for me to have to handle. The effect of removing Mr Abusive was immediate, obvious, and positive.

But if anything, I think the health of the guild community was helped just as much by my kicking Mr Maximum Infractions. I was definitely more nervous about doing it - I was worried that people would come after me and say I was being unfair, that we should give him another chance, or that I was messing things up. But it turned out Mr Maximum didn't even have that many friends in the guild. He wasn't integrated or invested, despite having been a member far longer than many of our more active crew, and longer than I had been its leader. Other members weren't invested in him, either, and felt awkward around him - usually as a direct result of the same behaviour that scored him his infractions (stuff like using slurs in guild chat). So there was way less backlash than I anticipated there to be.

The minor yet repeated conduct infractions were a symptom of a wider problem that - because, despite me approaching him after every infraction to ask if there was any way we could help him get on better in the guild, he was never amenable to talk beyond apologising for the infraction - I could not solve: he just wasn't fitting in. And since he wasn't leaving of his own accord, the best thing I could do - for us and for him - was to kick him.

I think a "no hard feelings, but we need to part ways" kick is definitely a tool that goes underutilised.

It helped my confidence in my decision that I'd watched my previous guild leader fail to act in similar situations (particularly abrasive people breezing past the supposed 3-strike rule and getting infractions in the double-digits with no kick in sight) and sworn to do better. But equally I can see how someone with a different experience - maybe all their previous guilds have been problem-free in this regard, or they come from the opposite end of the spectrum, with a former leader who would kick at a moment's notice for no reason - would be nervous about making that kick. A kick is seen as something you only do to bad people, or people you don't like.

But I think that's an incorrect perception. It's just a tool to remove someone from the guild, the same way an interview process is a way to remove someone from the recruitment pool.

TL;DR: Yeah please don't be afraid to kick people, and make sure to include rules to deal with if someone unsuited to the guild does make it through whatever interview process you got!

YET AGAIN i know i'm really long-winded i'm just... like this... i'm sorry

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Uther - 02-24-2017

(02-24-2017, 01:03 AM)Kilieit Wrote: in my experience, a lot of FC leaders are borderline phobic of the /gkick.

You bring up fair points, but to put my opinion bluntly: FC leaders need to understand that they're in a leadership role and they should be ready to make a tough call. You can't play softball with everyone who isn't fitting in. Rules are there to be followed, and if they're not then /gkick. Making it easier to gkick people makes it also easier for new people to get into the FC if they're recruiting, because the FC leader won't be afraid that if it doesn't work out this weirdo will be around forever and everyone will have to awkwardly deal with him or her. 

Be a leader. Do what's best for your FC. Don't be shy about it.

But that's just my opinion and personal leadership style. Everybody's different.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Parvacake - 02-24-2017

(02-24-2017, 01:23 AM)Uther Wrote:
(02-24-2017, 01:03 AM)Kilieit Wrote: in my experience, a lot of FC leaders are borderline phobic of the /gkick.

Be a leader. Do what's best for your FC. Don't be shy about it.

But that's just my opinion and personal leadership style. Everybody's different.

I agree with both Uther and Kili on this one.

Most RPers as a whole don't like to hurt someone's feelings. It's never a good feeling for anyone, really. That includes kicking people from a FC since that in itself can have a backlash that some FC leaders would rather not deal with. So they'll deal with the lesser of two evils.

Which goes back to the topic posted by the OP. Sometimes that means being a little extra careful with who you bring in so you don't have to resort to the banhammer.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-24-2017

(02-24-2017, 01:03 AM)Kilieit Wrote: Bolding mine. I think this is an interesting point - in my experience, a lot of FC leaders are borderline phobic of the /gkick.

I've been in the position myself of needing to make a gkick of a member who has exceeded their maximum allowed number of conduct infractions and need to be shown the door. I've also been in the position of needing to kick someone who is being so abusive, in guild chat, right now, that they need to be removed immediately for the mental health and emotional wellbeing of the other members.

I feel like... people think... a gkick is only "justified" if it's the latter sort of extreme situation? And forget to either include or enforce rules that say "we may ask you to leave if you're not fitting in" (which is essentially what "this member has made 3 conduct infractions in the last month" is telling you). They try to pre-emptively prevent the situation ever coming about through interviews and trial periods, which is just... not always feasible.

It was definitely easier for me to kick Mr Abusive. It was also easier for me to handle the fallout... or lack thereof. Enough people had witnessed it that there were no "he was kicked unfairly" rumours for me to have to handle. The effect of removing Mr Abusive was immediate, obvious, and positive.

I think the problem, as you sort of mentioned, is less to do with the guild leaders being afraid to lose a single member or hurting the feelings of the person getting kicked, and more that, unless someone is very visibly being an outright ass like you said, it can stir up a shitstorm about whether the person "deserved" to be kicked--whether it's their friends sticking up for them when they know they're in wrong (or perhaps because they lowkey share or at least approve of the same problematic behavior), misled do-gooders who genuinely believe there's been some abuse of power, or internet anarchists who have to constantly rebel and challenge everything. Oftentimes when I've found myself considering whether to kick someone, it tempting to think of it like less a question of "is it justified" and more "is this person's behavior worse than the fallout will probably be." Which is all the more reason for a thorough application process, I suppose--not only to try to avoid housing the people who will be kicked, but also those who will cause a fuss about someone being rightfully removed from the FC.

RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-24-2017

THere's a lot of diplomacy behind a /gkick and it can be tough to navigate. If that person has allies in the guild you're going to have to justify yourself over and over again and even then you still run the risk of those people leaving, causing morale to drop and make even MORE people leave. If you /gkick too much, people will assume you're too heavy handed and leave in droves anyway.

Sometimes, as a guild leader you don't really realize there's a big problem with a member because guildies don't actually tell you what goes on when you aren't around (They don't want to be "that guy") so people who should have been kicked long ago can sit in a guild for months.

We always try to let people know they are causing too many problems and bring them into the office a lot, but after awhile we start realizing they aren't working, but that can take time (Assholes rarely show themselves immediately) and we still try to use diplomacy so we don't have to kick them outright as it can look bad.

Honestly, it's easier to try to weed them out beforehand.