(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:

(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.


I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(11-26-2016, 03:06 AM)Rahferu Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:

(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible. 
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.


I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?
Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though. :/

(11-26-2016, 03:31 AM)Virella Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 03:06 AM)Rahferu Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote: You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.

Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.


I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?
Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though. :/

You don't see Gridanian Ninjas, or Doman Dragoons. Their fighting styles, cultures, religion ect is a very specific things, bound to a history to a specific area. Dark Knight is sadly enough one of those jobs as well.

Surely you can speculate on it, but it just as absurd of... for example, Buddhist Monks out of random just popping up in Medieval Europe, without said Buddhist Monks travelling there. Or Western Knights suddenly, with all their rules, believes and habits suddenly out of nowhere popping up in Australia.

Lots of the jobs in FFXIV have a specific background to them, and that to me is the beauty of this setting. It isn't a mix match, it is very diverse in cultures, religion ect. All cities, races have their own background, and thus specific fighting styles were created from a certain need, religion or culture. Because why would Limsa need Dragoons for example? They really don't. It is really just the Ishgardians who needed them!

Surely, there is evil and oppression everywhere, but it is explicate stated it was a counter measure against the Halonic Church corrupt religious priests. Effect and cause. Take that out of account, and you have a very wonky character in my opinion. You have no base any more for them, and merely the skillset, thus once more, in my opinion, kinda just... ignoring the rich background we have for jobs like that. Use the lore, try to fit your character in, like make them have travelled to Ishgard, got invested with the plight of the people, make them hate the corrupt individuals of the Halonic Church, let them become a Dark Knight.

Once more, there's working with the lore, and simply plucking the skillset from said jobs without wanting to make the 'sacrifice' to fit your character in it because you don't happen to like it. And I happen to be one of those roleplayers who simply won't roleplay it instead of breaking it. Because in my opinion, if your character's background doesn't fit with the canon? I see that as lore breaking. But that is once more, my opinion.

Anyhow, people should roleplay what they want, and each to their own

(11-26-2016, 03:46 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise. 
I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

(11-26-2016, 04:04 AM)Virella Wrote:

(11-26-2016, 03:46 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise. 
I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

Where does it say we had people using it before the Ishgardian Dark Knights, let alone people who were found outside Ishgard did? I've done the questline, I'm pretty familiar with Ishgardian lore, but I really can't find any of it. We only know the Dark Knight order eventually got the Dark Arts, much later then the first Dark Knight. That still doesn't however state there were people outside Ishgard who had earlier access to this, or to this at all to begin with.

Yes, Warrior and Dark Knight do touch upon emotions, but in a different way, but Dark Knights deal with the Dark Arts, whereas Warriors have their Inner Beast to deal with. Yes it is quite similar, but not exactly the same! I believe, if I'm correct, Warriors have a need to constantly seek out bigger threats to hone their skills for their Inner Beast, whereas for Dark Knights its purely focused on well, religious corruption of the Halonic Church (who knows what they may do come Stormblood though!)

Anyhow, I'm still really interested how you came to the conclusion the Dark Arts is used by other than/before Dark Knights came to be. Would you mind sharing me this information? Because I might have missed something then. I, and others have simply told you 'Well, lore states x', but if you can find lore, and not speculation, on it what myself and others might have missed? Awesome, give it to us, I'm very much interested in learning more lore! Not speculation.

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote: Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.


I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

(11-26-2016, 05:17 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I personally would be surprised that the potential or underlying ability for a dark knight's existence in some form didn't at all exist BEFORE people figured out how to control it and name it and such. (To me, that's kind of like Christoper Columbus "discovering" the americas...he didn't really. there were already people living there and doing their thing, etc etc.)
The Dark Knights combated the church with their abilities, yes. BUT WHERE did those abilities COME FROM? How did they get these abilities? There had to have been some kind of source, one would think. That kind of knowledge doesn't just grow on trees, after all.
Maybe I just think outside the box too much, idk. The lore doesn't cover enough imo.


Also, I am trying to explain WHY I think that could've been a possibility, given other things we do know for sure about the world of FFXIV. 
I am not claiming that I am correct per se--rather, I am stating that the lorebook doesn't seem to say YES or NO to my theory definitively. I'm merely using evidence to support my views.

The lorebook is also a supplemental guide as I understand it, and it has SOME information to fill in some of the blanks and answer some of the questions. It's not the entire list of answers to the test, so to speak. There's plenty of stuff the lorebook alone doesn't tell us.
I completely understand the desire to adhere to the book, but when the book doesn't say NO THAT DIDN'T (OR COULDN'T POSSIBLY) HAPPEN, many people are going to interpret it either way.

(11-26-2016, 01:04 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: As for dark knight, no reason you can't play as a zweihander-wielding fighter who uses generic aether in combat. And also coincidentally is a vigilante. Just calling it dark Knight, as people have already pointed out, ties it to Ishgard, the same way samurai are only found in Japan.

(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not)  were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak...

(11-26-2016, 01:28 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Yeah, but then it's like

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote: Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself. 
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks. 

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was. 
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.


I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

(11-26-2016, 01:28 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Yeah, but then it's like

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.