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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve (/showthread.php?tid=16799)
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Valence - 07-23-2016
(07-23-2016, 02:08 PM)The Black Healer Wrote: Whoop! Right, you're very correct! Still, there does seem to be some flavor within that discussed among a few others of the community. Someone even wondered is Shiva was considered the Dusk Mother but I don't know what we have to prove a speculation like that...personally. But it's an interesting thought.Â
Shiva being considered the Dusk Mother sounds a bit hazardous to me. Shiva is Dravanian/Landlords figure that got turned into the epitome of heresy for centuries in the society of Ishgard. They even go to the point saying a few times in the MSQ that not everybody is even aware of her considering how taboo and repressed and censored she actually was in most ishgardian books and stories.
In any case, I have a hard time seeing how she could have reached Othard somehow.
The lore quotes from Oboro brought up by Sounssy in the post you linked is interesting in itself. It seems indeed to point at something very similar to shintoism where Domans would revere an equivalent of kami (japanese spirits akin to elementals).
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - The Black Healer - 07-23-2016
(07-23-2016, 04:23 PM)Valence Wrote: Shiva being considered the Dusk Mother sounds a bit hazardous to me. Shiva is Dravanian/Landlords figure that got turned into the epitome of heresy for centuries in the society of Ishgard. They even go to the point saying a few times in the MSQ that not everybody is even aware of her considering how taboo and repressed and censored she actually was in most ishgardian books and stories.
In any case, I have a hard time seeing how she could have reached Othard somehow.
Mmm, I agree with those points. Too many holes in it to work lore wise but it would be an interesting viewpoint outside of lore if one were to make a story of it.
Quote:The lore quotes from Oboro brought up by Sounssy in the post you linked is interesting in itself. It seems indeed to point at something very similar to shintoism where Domans would revere an equivalent of kami (japanese spirits akin to elementals).
Yes, I was very happy to see I wasn't the only one who thought there was a possible thread to it. How exciting! Especially since elementals exist (and sprites), Shintoism could possibly look like conjurers do in Eorzea. Imagine if doman priests were like shinto priests? I would love to see a concept like that! I would personally question if ancestor worship could have a form of power too...calling upon their power to fuel yours...sort of like channeling from yourself but through your....bloodline or ancestors spirits?
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Valence - 07-24-2016
Well, the only two cases I can refer to in lore for ancestors empowering somebody are soulstones, which are memories, experiences and testimony from the people that wore it before, and the case of A-Towa Cant coming back in the form of a ghost (that can even interact with the world around), but that second case seems pretty much linked to the WhM soulstone in the first place so... Yeah. Soulstones.
And that thing with Louisoix in the last Coils..
Doesn't mean it's the only way to do it though. But as far as I know there is nothing else in the lore currently existing for that purpose.
Then of course you have all the more creepy ways like bringing back your loved one from the dead in twisted voidsent personas and the likes, and then making them possess you and whatnot, but I doubt that's really empowering by ancestors proper. :p
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - LiadansWhisper - 07-24-2016
Communing with the dead, in general, seems to lead to Very Bad Things™ in the gameworld.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - The Black Healer - 07-25-2016
(07-24-2016, 02:41 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Communing with the dead, in general, seems to lead to Very Bad Things™ in the gameworld.
Very true...but keep in mind this would be more honoring the dead and receiving something like a blessing from them. Certainly not trying to bring them back to the land of the living. That becomes...another matter entirely and often goes very very very...VERY...wrong. Spread the word Liadan!! It must never happen!!
Quote:Well, the only two cases I can refer to in lore for ancestors empowering somebody are soulstones, which are memories, experiences and testimony from the people that wore it before, and the case of A-Towa Cant coming back in the form of a ghost (that can even interact with the world around), but that second case seems pretty much linked to the WhM soulstone in the first place so... Yeah. Soulstones.
You also raise a very good point. Which actually brings me to a burning question....Hydaelyn. Do Eorzeans know about her? Is she worshiped like the other gods? Or is it fewer and far between that they have even heard of her? Because soulstones...are pretty much what they sound like. Soul. Stones. And that concept is fascinating in and of itself. The power that it gives and the context of it in general.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Kilieit - 07-25-2016
Hydaelyn is weird, because when you mention her all the (major lore) NPCs speak about her in, like, hushed whispers. Gasp! You saw the Mothercrystal! So on the one hand: they recognised her from your description (a towering crystal that spoke), so obviously her existence is A Thing to non-Echo users. But on the other hand that doesn't tell us anything about how well known her existence is or if she's worshipped as a god, at all.
I do think that it's fairly evident that even if she is worshipped, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn (and before them, I'm guessing, the Path of the Twelve) are her most forefront worshippers. I mean, she's not as much of a practical god as the others. You pray to Thaliak to make wise decisions, Nophica for a bountiful harvest of materials, Byregot to craft your wares well, Llymlaen to navigate the sea safely, Oschon to do the same for the land, Nald'thal to have fruitful trades once you're there, and Menphina to ensure you have a loving spouse to come home to after all of it. You can even - less tangibly - pray to Althyk for a good long future, Nymeia for luck, Rhalgr for the destruction of your enemies, and Azeyma or Halone for revenge or protection...
What's left to pray to the Mothercrystal for?
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - The Black Healer - 07-25-2016
(07-25-2016, 04:56 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Hydaelyn is weird, because when you mention her all the (major lore) NPCs speak about her in, like, hushed whispers. Gasp! You saw the Mothercrystal! So on the one hand: they recognised her from your description (a towering crystal that spoke), so obviously her existence is A Thing to non-Echo users. But on the other hand that doesn't tell us anything about how well known her existence is or if she's worshipped as a god, at all.
Very true. It's never really talked about out in the world that I've seen even though the world is named AFTER her. Some sort of reverence must be given to her for that to be true but it's sort of a grey area.
Quote:I do think that it's fairly evident that even if she is worshipped, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn (and before them, I'm guessing, the Path of the Twelve) are her mostforefront worshippers.Â
Mmm...this brings me to something else. Most rp-ers that follow lore don't use the echo or mention it because of A) it being OP, B) being too close to meta/easy to meta and C) they consider the lore of the echo in itself to be too faulty and kind of god status..which is a big no no. Therefore, besides her being there since time began (? Maybe we should thank Althyk for that ?) and seeming to be the counter balance between the darkness that exists (i.e Zodiark).....and...ok, perhaps holding the world together in general...which makes me wonder if she supplies the world with aether? I mean, she IS a giant crystal...and when the BLMs and WHMs were fighting, it was draining the world and her of energy and nearly killed her....correct me if I'm wrong but now I'm starting to wonder....
Quote:What's left to pray to the Mothercrystal for?
I might assume she'd be another catch all god(dess) like Halone is to the Ishgardians. She could be revered as the mother god(dess) or the god(dess) of the light, earth mother, things like that. Perhaps.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Melkire - 07-25-2016
Actually, most NPCs refer to Hydaelyn as the name of the world.
The Scions are among a select few (e.g. the Ascians, the primals, and Midgardsormr) who seem aware that there's an intellect behind said world. The Echo -- or the Blessing of Light -- seems to be the sole means by which one becomes aware of her. After all, the Scions aren't running around singing Hydaelyn's praises in any sort of paradoxical contradiction to the Twelve (save to the leaders of the city-states). It's only once the Warrior of Light recounts his experience that Minfilia and the other Scions go out of their way to explain who and what Hydaelyn is.
...of course, I could be entirely wrong. It's been a long time since I paid attention to the 2.0 MSQ text.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Kilieit - 07-25-2016
Oh one more thing: "may you walk in the light of the Crystal" is a greeting that gets thrown around sometimes; but, again, by fairly major lore NPCs. I'm looking at Minfilia, the Circle of Knowing, the city-state leaders, and Momodi/Miounne. All people who are either directly involved with or have solid reason to know about the Scions.
Even if "The Mothercrystal" is known about, I think it's unlikely she'd be given the name "Hydaelyn" by many...
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - LiadansWhisper - 07-25-2016
(07-25-2016, 04:38 PM)The Black Healer Wrote: Very true...but keep in mind this would be more honoring the dead and receiving something like a blessing from them. Certainly not trying to bring them back to the land of the living. That becomes...another matter entirely and often goes very very very...VERY...wrong. Spread the word Liadan!! It must never happen!!
The problem is, that's not how death and dying really works in Eorzea. The dead pass on, and there's nothing left behind of the actual person in most cases. So asking for a blessing from them is like asking thin air - there's nothing there to bless you...
I mean, unless you get really unlucky and attract a voidsent. But then, would you really call that a blessing?
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - The Black Healer - 07-25-2016
(07-25-2016, 09:53 PM)Melkire Wrote: Actually, most NPCs refer to Hydaelyn as the name of the world.
The Scions are among a select few (e.g. the Ascians, the primals, and Midgardsormr) who seem aware that there's an intellect behind said world. The Echo -- or the Blessing of Light -- seems to be the sole means by which one becomes aware of her. After all, the Scions aren't running around singing Hydaelyn's praises in any sort of paradoxical contradiction to the Twelve (save to the leaders of the city-states). It's only once the Warrior of Light recounts his experience that Minfilia and the other Scions go out of their way to explain who and what Hydaelyn is.
Hm...I'll have to look back at it, you may be right and I had been mis-interpreting it. I'd rather see if I can get the fact straight before I go tossing around Hydaelyns name as a goddess and confusing the heck out of people ICly...and creating utter chaos in rp brains because of lore. Again, I'm trying to follow it as closely as possible.
Quote:The problem is, that's not how death and dying really works in Eorzea. The dead pass on, and there's nothing left behind of the actual person in most cases. So asking for a blessing from them is like asking thin air - there's nothing there to bless you...
Oh right! Yeah...good point. Because there's the lifestream but...we know what happens there.
Quote:I'm looking at Minfilia, the Circle of Knowing, the city-state leaders, and Momodi/Miounne. All people who are either directly involved with or have solid reason to know about the Scions......Ok, actually, you and Melkire are helping to clear it up a bit better, think I'm starting to understand. I'll still do more research though but we'll see if I find anything else that you guys haven't already said.
Even if "The Mothercrystal" is known about, I think it's unlikely she'd be given the name "Hydaelyn" by many...
Quote:I mean, unless you get really unlucky and attract a voidsent. But then, would you really call that a blessing?Not unless you think a curse is a blessing...or you're a masochist....
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - LiadansWhisper - 07-25-2016
(07-25-2016, 10:39 PM)The Black Healer Wrote: Oh right! Yeah...good point. Because there's the lifestream but...we know what happens there.
She didn't just get lucky...she only ever had a chance because she was alive when she went in.
Quote:Not unless you think a curse is a blessing...or you're a masochist....
Or you're Edda!
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Valence - 07-26-2016
Zodiark and Hydaelyn are mostly esoteric concepts that are not really known to most Eorzeans. Especially Zodiark, that everybody has forgotten for millenias and eras, if they even knew about him to begin with.
As said above, Hydaelyn refers to the planet. Some people might have a vague grasp that there is probably more spiritual stuff behind the planet than that, as evidenced by the Calamities, but that's it I think.
I actually don't think that having a cult built around some kind of blessing from ancestors would contradict lore so much. Just build it around soulstones really. Classquests especially are a direct testimony to all the leeway you can get from ancestors' spirits manifesting through soulstones, from the very mild manifestations like in the NIN quests (you basically carry the experiences and soul of one of your fellow ninja before you, and it mostly seems very spiritual rather than anything else), to the very shattering events like A-Towa Cant coming to say hello almost in flesh and help quelling the Elementals.Â
So I actually think it's directly supported by the lore, and it's up to you to see to what kind of level/magnitude you want to take it really.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - The Black Healer - 07-26-2016
(07-26-2016, 03:41 AM)Valence Wrote: Zodiark and Hydaelyn are mostly esoteric concepts that are not really known to most Eorzeans. Especially Zodiark, that everybody has forgotten for millenias and eras, if they even knew about him to begin with.
As said above, Hydaelyn refers to the planet. Some people might have a vague grasp that there is probably more spiritual stuff behind the planet than that, as evidenced by the Calamities, but that's it I think.
I actually don't think that having a cult built around some kind of blessing from ancestors would contradict lore so much. Just build it around soulstones really. Classquests especially are a direct testimony to all the leeway you can get from ancestors' spirits manifesting through soulstones, from the very mild manifestations like in the NIN quests (you basically carry the experiences and soul of one of your fellow ninja before you, and it mostly seems very spiritual rather than anything else), to the very shattering events like A-Towa Cant coming to say hello almost in flesh and help quelling the Elementals.Â
So I actually think it's directly supported by the lore, and it's up to you to see to what kind of level/magnitude you want to take it really.
The thought had crossed my mind about revering the soul stones like that but I had wondered how many people use them in rp. I noticed the forum here that's about six pages now (I think) about people discussing whether or not they use soul stones ICly. It seems most do but others don't simply for the recognition that they may not need it just to be able to do that job. But I think for the idea you and I are speaking of, perhaps there would be more to it and could be used that way. I think I might explore it, I do like the concept.
RE: Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve - Valence - 07-26-2016
Well, I mean here it's not even about a job, it's just soulstones you carry with you, imprint yourself into them, and then pass along generations. I can totally see a cult forming around that with ancestors revering and stuff.
You really don't even need anything about a job here. I find the concept quite original and neat. Of course, it's already threading into world building stuff because we are not anymore talking about pure lore facts here.
OR... You can go the milder road and actually revere ancestors like we do IRL with not much magic behind. Maybe there is, and your cultists probably think so, but maybe there isn't.