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+--- Thread: Creating a Dragoon... (/showthread.php?tid=13219)
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Vitamin C - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:05 AM)V Wrote:(09-01-2015, 01:59 AM)Oli! Wrote: SnipThere are two listed:
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/K%27leytai
Dialogue:
Welcome to Camp Riversmeet. I am Gatewarden K'leytai.
Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of the Wyrmking's Perch, The Lance, and Twinpools.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Panha_Jaab
Dialogue:
Welcome to Camp Crooked Fork. I am Gatewarden Panha Jaab.
Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of Maiden Glen, the Hushed Boughs and Scarwing Fall.
(09-01-2015, 02:04 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: "Is there a plausible way in which a non-hyur or non-elezen could become a respected resident of Ishgard"Strength, work-ethic, and decent connections. Just ask http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lucia
Also, what part of the whole "Kill big dragon, get big title" shtick is particularly difficult to grasp?
I have to point out that K'leytai is apart of Saint Conach's Find in terms of ARR, "Our men and women" is in reference to that particular group, seeing as how she's based in Mor Dhona if that is dialogue taken from the levewarden herself.
Also, the 1.0 legacy lore, a lot of it was changed to better fit the lore of environments and consistency of the game's setting. What was changed was in an effort to be more appealing and flesh out the lore of each area. While I don't discredit the existence of Panha Jaab and what she says, she could've very well been retconned like a lot of other things in the Legacy lore.Â
(Thus making anything not referenced directly in ARR, like the Roegadyn that comes from a line of Roes that serve Dzemael, speculation)
However, House Dzemael and Fortemps are known for hiring adventurers/mercenaries to do their work because they're more eager to help than most Temple Knights. You have to also keep in mind that being a "Citizen of Coerthas" is different than being a "Citizen of Ishgard", which is why Coerthans even still maintain a means of communication with the rest of Eorzea, trying to foster good relations between the Eorzean Alliance when they (might) want something from the Xenophobic Ishgard.Â
Furthermore, the title of dragoon =/= being a Dragoon. One is a title of prestige and one details the core of Ishgardians capable of performing the aerial combat and magic of your basic dragoon. Those same dragoons being descendants of those from old war between man and dragon, essentially Thordan's time.Â
"Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes."
While it's certainly possible for any race to work impeccably hard to become an Ishgardian Dragoon by title, it is quite improbable that they became one by class. It would take years of training or access to a fount of power much akin to the Eye to awaken such magics. Training that a race of xenophobes for anything but hyur/elezen would most likely not give.
(Also this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but in terms of hyur being lower class than elezen, alot of heretics are in fact hyuran and if you check many of the prisons, it's almost always purely just hyur in there. While this doesn't prove anything, there is certainly a great number of distate for hyur in Ishgard. Also the whole discrimination against "mutts" like Hilda or, by extent, Aymeric.)
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - V'aleera - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:35 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: I have to point out that K'leytai is apart of Saint Conach's Find in terms of ARR, "Our men and women" is in reference to that particular group, seeing as how she's based in Mor Dhona if that is dialogue taken from the levewarden herself.K'leytai has no ARR dialogue. The referenced dialogue is from 1.0.
(09-01-2015, 02:35 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: Furthermore, the title of dragoon =/= being a Dragoon. One is a title of prestige and one details the core of Ishgardians capable of performing the aerial combat and magic of your basic dragoon. Those same dragoons being descendants of those from old war between man and dragon, essentially Thordan's time.Then how do you explain Hyur dragoons? Hyur only arrived in Eorzea five hundred years past, and they came in as basically savage invaders. The miqo'te have been present for far longer than them.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:29 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: If we're going to BS it and cram the MSQ in there, canonically the WoL is a midlander man, so no, that is not part of lore.
I don't recall seeing anything to that effect during my time playing the game. Perhaps you can point me to the quest which tells me that my characters aren't valid due to their gender?
Returning to the point, which I encourage you to also do (and mind the disrespectful comments about BSing, thank you - if you prefer for the discussion to be a rude one then you're welcome to behave poorly via private messages, but out in the open, remember there are moderators afoot and you'd do well to keep yourself civil)...
...the latter part of my comment remains utterly intact even if we completely ignore the MSQ. While using the dragoon job and interacting with NPCs in Ishgard, a miqo'te, au ra, etc, receives no differing dialogue compared to anyone else.Â
That said, the MSQ quests are also evidence of the equality of the races in the eyes of the NPCs. It doesn't matter that you're supposedly the Super Special One True Hero. If it was going to be bizarre for someone "of your kind" to be that, the dialogue from the NPCs would be something to the effect of "of all the fur-eared half-witted choices the gods could've made for someone to have this gift, it had to be one of /you/ things?!"
Instead, it's nothing but respect. Regardless of the race of the toon. Regardless of the quest (except in cases where the NPC is equally disrespectful toward someone of any other race, too).
I'm really not seeing where there's any lore basis for any claim that there's racial prejudice happening.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Flashhelix - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:33 AM)Valeera Wrote: Do you mean roleplaying them correctly, or with superpowers they have never been shown to have?
I mean putting a little bit of effort into roleplaying them. But yeah, let's just be passive-aggressive. That works too. I figure it's a good time as any to bow out of this ill-fated discussion seeing as people are clearly beginning to take their pretendytimes far too seriously.
(09-01-2015, 02:39 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Returning to the point, which I encourage you to also do (and mind the disrespectful comments about BSing, thank you - if you prefer for the discussion to be a rude one then you're welcome to behave poorly via private messages, but out in the open, remember there are moderators afoot and you'd do well to keep yourself civil)...
See above.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:34 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: In all due respect, while your argument is correct, using the job questline weakens your aurgment. the Dragoon questline deals with the exceptions of the exceptions. You are the 2nd Azure dragoon when there should ONLY BE ONE. Given the religious nature of Ishgard, if Halone chose a Miqo'te to be the Azure Dragoon, they sure as hell would shut up
NOT ONLY THAT. But Estienien has to clarify around 30 times in the MSQ (If you go as Dragoon) that you are Azure Dragoon, and that is clarifications to People like AYMERIC, so it is clear VERY FEW PEOPLE know who or what you are. To everyone else, you are just a lance wielding schmo.
Any plot that directly relates to what the main character in the MSQ or job quests can get away with has to be analyzed under immense scrutiny for a case of exceptionalism.
Which is what the Dragoon job quests are PLAGUED WITH.
It is the reason why Paladins are so comfortable with their job definitions and Dragoons get a 10 page discussion like this every few months.
It has gotten easier with Heavensward, but it is still VERY HARD to separate what is just a quality of BAHAMUT KILLER, WOL and every day schmuck of the same job title.
Still no difference in the dialogue or treatment of the character regardless of race.
Plenty of people in the real world who are zealous levels of religious are still also racist. The fact that someone is supposedly blessed by your god doesn't erase your prejudices or make you instantly regard them with the utmost of kindness and respect. There'd be this begrudging tone... this reluctant acceptance of divine will in spite of your hesitation to accept what's occurring. Not "Oh hello there, person whose race I'm not even at all fazed by".
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - V'aleera - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:39 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:I'm simply referring back to the question you refused to answer:(09-01-2015, 02:33 AM)V Wrote: Do you mean roleplaying them correctly, or with superpowers they have never been shown to have?
I mean putting a little bit of effort into roleplaying them. But yeah, let's just be passive-aggressive. That works too. I figure it's a good time as any to bow out of this ill-fated discussion seeing as people are clearly beginning to take their pretendytimes far too seriously.
Why is it logical to assume regular dragoons can utilize magic that only the Azure Dragoon has shown an ability to use? You stated that you incorporate those skills into your RP, but have no lore basis to do so. And yet, you claim that miqo'te can't be dragoons or Ishgardian, citing no lore exists to support them (a citation which has been challenged, but we'll ignore that for now).
So which is it?
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:39 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:(09-01-2015, 02:33 AM)V Wrote: Do you mean roleplaying them correctly, or with superpowers they have never been shown to have?
I mean putting a little bit of effort into roleplaying them. But yeah, let's just be passive-aggressive. That works too. I figure it's a good time as any to bow out of this ill-fated discussion seeing as people are clearly beginning to take their pretendytimes far too seriously.
(09-01-2015, 02:39 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Returning to the point, which I encourage you to also do (and mind the disrespectful comments about BSing, thank you - if you prefer for the discussion to be a rude one then you're welcome to behave poorly via private messages, but out in the open, remember there are moderators afoot and you'd do well to keep yourself civil)...
See above.
Or you could apologize for referring to my side of the discussion as "bullshit" when I've been presenting my case in a rational and calm manner. Don't act like we're the bad guys here just because we decided not to take your misbehavior laying down.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Vitamin C - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:38 AM)V Wrote: Then how do you explain Hyur dragoons? Hyur only arrived in Eorzea five hundred years past, and they came in as basically savage invaders. The miqo'te have been present for far longer than them.
If you look at people like Hilda or Aymeric for example, as Helix said earlier in the thread, if you have two races together for long enough, they're going to copulate and crossbreed. The original dragoons from Haldrath's time were purely elezen, but as you said, if hyur have been with Elezen in Ishgard for more than (at the least) a hundred years, there's going to be generations of mixed breeding to the point where you can kind of just say that they were either taught by the 'super secret dragoon' club of Ishgard with enough trust, or that any Ishgardian hyur is a descendant of an elezen. It can also explain most of the naming conventions of hyurs from Ishgard.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Flashhelix - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:42 AM)Valeera Wrote:(09-01-2015, 02:39 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:I'm simply referring back to the question you refused to answer:(09-01-2015, 02:33 AM)V Wrote: Do you mean roleplaying them correctly, or with superpowers they have never been shown to have?
I mean putting a little bit of effort into roleplaying them. But yeah, let's just be passive-aggressive. That works too. I figure it's a good time as any to bow out of this ill-fated discussion seeing as people are clearly beginning to take their pretendytimes far too seriously.
Why is it logical to assume regular dragoons can utilize magic that only the Azure Dragoon has shown an ability to use? You stated that you incorporate those skills into your RP, but have no lore basis to do so. And yet, you claim that miqo'te can't be dragoons or Ishgardian, citing no lore (a citation which has been challenged, but we'll ignore that for now).
So which is it?
(09-01-2015, 02:42 AM)Valeera Wrote: you claim that miqo'te can't be dragoons or Ishgardian
Wrong. I have made at least three posts in this thread in which I address that exact accusation. I will not make another.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - V'aleera - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:44 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: If you look at people like Hilda or Aymeric for exampleHilda is an irregular abomination, as far as the majority of mainstream Ishgardians of every race are concerned. Additionally, Word of God maintains that crossbreeding among the races is extraordinarily rare. Your speculation can't be definitively proven incorrect, but there is a heck of a lot of known information stacked against it.
And Aymeric is not a half-breed, just a bastard. Unless I completely missed something in the MSQ.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Oli! - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:33 AM)V Wrote: Post #80
Ah ha, found it.
For context however, it should be noted that I was reacting to this quote:
(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)V Wrote: I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?
Two gate guards still doesn't seem to be quite in that league, is all that I was trying to state. I doubt that two guards total were responsible for an entire region. And even if they were, two people is far from a veritable legion of outsiders.
This makes me wonder whether or not Knights are markedly distinct from Temple Knights, which seem to be a church-run order for believers. We have evidence that Houses have knights to themselves, and if that quote about an earlier House and their use of sellswords and outsiders is any indication, it's entirely possible that these guards were hired to guard a claim staked by a house. Although the relation between private knights and Temple Knights is unclear, it is possible that they were the former, and not the latter.
But again, speculation.
I do think that we're getting a little hostile on both fronts at the moment, however.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Flashhelix - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:44 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Or you could apologize for referring to my side of the discussion as "bullshit" when I've been presenting my case in a rational and calm manner. Don't act like we're the bad guys here just because we decided not to take your misbehavior laying down.
You are reading into the use of BS as a verb far, far too much.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - V'aleera - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:49 AM)Oli! Wrote: Two gate guards still doesn't seem to be quite in that league, is all that I was trying to state.To whom do you personally believe they referred to when each stated "Our men and women"?
Quote:This makes me wonder whether or not Knights are markedly distinct from Temple Knights, which seem to be a church-run order for believers.Temple Knights are a distinct order that sits above the rest. Certain quests and dialogue indicate that, much like dragoons, valorous deeds can see a regular knight be elevated and promoted to the esteemed ranks of the Temple Knights.
I believe the best example is a fellow in Whitebrim, I forget which.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:50 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:(09-01-2015, 02:44 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Or you could apologize for referring to my side of the discussion as "bullshit" when I've been presenting my case in a rational and calm manner. Don't act like we're the bad guys here just because we decided not to take your misbehavior laying down.
You are reading into the use of BS as a verb far, far too much.
Pot, kettle, black, re: passive-aggressive behavior.
I've no interest in continuing a discussion where my perspective is insulted and a request for apology is scoffed at. Peace, out.
RE: Creating a Dragoon... - Flashhelix - 09-01-2015
(09-01-2015, 02:55 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:(09-01-2015, 02:50 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:(09-01-2015, 02:44 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: Or you could apologize for referring to my side of the discussion as "bullshit" when I've been presenting my case in a rational and calm manner. Don't act like we're the bad guys here just because we decided not to take your misbehavior laying down.
You are reading into the use of BS as a verb far, far too much.
Pot, kettle, black, re: passive-aggressive behavior.
I've no interest in continuing a discussion where my perspective is insulted and a request for apology is scoffed at. Peace, out.
Your perspective was never insulted. But who am I to tell you what those words meant? I only wrote them.