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+--- Thread: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? (/showthread.php?tid=11578)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Melkire - 05-26-2015
I'm not going to lie. I never played WoW. A lot of the arguments against Square-Enix's decision on this matter seem to boil down to, "WoW doesn't do it this way."
...so?
Maybe it's that I come from a history of single player computer games back in the 90s, instead of a history of MMORPGs, but when I hear "expansion pack," I think, "alright I've done everything there is to do in the game I bought, and now I want more." Expansions were, by and large, something for those who'd already consumed the product to a significant degree. They allowed developers and producers to deliver more of the same content without all the time, energy, and investment that normally goes into the development and production of a full-scale sequel.
By that admittedly old-school logic, I don't see any issues with expansion content requiring progressiom through the pre-existing narrative, barring the sole exception of the new jobs. If those are also gated for good reasons - narrative, or technical limitations - then I can understand and accept the situation as-is.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 05-26-2015
Final Fantasy is a game entirely apart form Warcraft, and is fully entitled to make its own mistakes. That doesn't mean they aren't mistakes - and from my perspective this is clearly one, given the effect it has upon discouraging bringing in new players. Generally speaking, people rarely buy a new game to take part in two year old content or spend six months of grinding before being able to enjoy the current game with their friends.Â
I have no doubt FF's expansion will still be successful. I also have no doubt that this sort of design will turn away some potential new players.  It negatively impacts my own judgement and enjoyment of the game (since I won't even bother making the Ishgard-based alts I was considering), and has had a negative impact on any anticipation I may have had toward Heavensward.
None of this has a fig to do with Warcraft, or any of FF's other MMO competitors.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 05-26-2015
As Osric said.
Also I 100% /don't/ want a bunch of new players in Ishgard, doing the new dungeons with me right off the gate. The new stuff will be at least as hard as the expert dungeons in 2.55, and people should go through the story and learn how to play.
People can go through the main story or they can just find a game with with an easier barrier to entry. FFXIV is a sub game, not F2P, and is more about pleasing a select group of people rather than the masses.
^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 11:54 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: ^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.Really? Well, don't worry, you'll get your wish!
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - cuideag - 05-26-2015
I'm honestly a little surprised that people are surprised that expansion content would be gated behind a) an expansion, b) content. Even the most casual of casuals can slog their way through it. It's just time you wanna put in to see the game that you pay for.
Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)
It's an inconvenience to be sure, especially if you have a thing for alts (and I DO
) but I don't think it's as awful as folks make it out to be.(05-26-2015, 11:41 AM)Melkire Wrote: ... A lot of the arguments against Square-Enix's decision on this matter seem to boil down to, "WoW doesn't do it this way."
...so?
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kage - 05-26-2015
I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.
I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 11:57 AM)Aya Wrote:(05-26-2015, 11:54 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: ^Why would they want new players Aya, their must successful game to date FXI hovered around this number of subscribers for about a decade, and they were very pleased with it. Square Enix may just be totally happy with the current player base.Really? Well, don't worry, you'll get your wish!
I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.
If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?
If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:04 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.Its not vitriol, its astonishment (and disappointment).
If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?
If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.
#1: Because you're going to lose players due to attrition.
#2: Because the more players the healthier the MMO.
#3: Because I like making new friends, and because if the game were actually welcoming to new players I'd like to invite my other friends to play it.Â
I'm glad that you're perfectly happy - and I guess I'm glad that there's a game out there to cater to your particular needs (it is a big gaming world afterall!). Maybe it does work out the best for them-they obviously want to make their MMO about story and that appeals to some players. It does not appeal to me, and the doubling down on this approach at such an expense to accessibility I just find disheartening.
I am honestly a little surprised that anyone would prefer the game actively discourage the joining of new players, or new players from participating in current content.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Gone. - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 11:59 AM)cuideag Wrote: Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)
Difference being those secondary classes can be done at any time past level 10 which is entirely reasonable. Having to sludge through weeks of MSQ tedium isn't. Not a fair comparison whatsoever.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Gegenji - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:03 PM)Kage Wrote: I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.
I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.
If they're abysmal at tanking with PLD/WAR, though, could you be expect them to be any better with DRK? While the specific skills may be different, I would figure running through PLD/WAR would at least help to instill basic tank mechanics - use enmity combo on single target, use AoE on groups, use defensive cooldowns liberally when needed, and so on - that are still going to be needed as a DRK. If they're still abysmal after getting their existing tank class of choice to 50, I can't really expect them to suddenly be good with the new one.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:12 PM)Aya Wrote:(05-26-2015, 12:04 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I just looked it up and FXI at its best was around 300,000 and FFXIV is at least double that. Plus there are micro transactions to add to their profits.Its not vitriol, its astonishment (and disappointment).
If people aren't interested in playing the whole 2.0... then too bad so sad imo. I know you're giving that response with some vitriol. However how would an influx of new players who have no interest in going through the paces and learning the gameplay be a positive thing?
If FFXIV stays at this level of subscribers for the next decade, I'm perfectly happy, and I'm open to arguments about why that would be a bad thing. Because I can't see the downside.
#1: Because you're going to lose players due to attrition.
#2: Because the more players the healthier the MMO.
#3: Because I like making new friends, and because if the game were actually welcoming to new players I'd like to invite my other friends to play it.Â
I'm glad that you're perfectly happy - and I guess I'm glad that there's a game out there to cater to your particular needs (it is a big gaming world afterall!). Maybe it does work out the best for them-they obviously want to make their MMO about story and that appeals to some players. It does not appeal to me, and the doubling down on this approach at such an expense to accessibility I just find disheartening.
I am honestly a little surprised that anyone would prefer the game actively discourage the joining of new players, or new players from participating in current content.
I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.
New people can play the game like it was designed or they can leave. You might disagree, but Squares mmo team does not. Which is why they are sticking fast to this.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Melkire - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:15 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(05-26-2015, 11:59 AM)cuideag Wrote: Were folks this upset when they had to level, say, Lancer to 30 plus some other thing to 15 to unlock Dragoon? That didn't stop new players from jumping onto the XIV bandwagon, and I don't see how it would stop folks jumping into Heavensward. (It won't.)
Difference being those secondary classes can be done at any time past level 10 which is entirely reasonable. Having to sludge through weeks of MSQ tedium isn't. Not a fair comparison whatsoever.
A better comparison, though flawed in myriad ways, would be not being able to glamour your gear until you hit level 50.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kage - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:16 PM)Gegenji Wrote:That's the travesty of it all(05-26-2015, 12:03 PM)Kage Wrote: I don't really have a problem with the gate. I feel bad for those specific players who saw NEW JOBS I WANT FINALLY!!11 and didn't play the game before and now do, but it's a specific subset.
I'm honestly more upset with the people who want to play Dark Knights and as such are grinding their PLD/WAR out right now and are abysmal at tanking.
If they're abysmal at tanking with PLD/WAR, though, could you be expect them to be any better with DRK? While the specific skills may be different, I would figure running through PLD/WAR would at least help to instill basic tank mechanics - use enmity combo on single target, use AoE on groups, use defensive cooldowns liberally when needed, and so on - that are still going to be needed as a DRK. If they're still abysmal after getting their existing tank class of choice to 50, I can't really expect them to suddenly be good with the new one.
They just want to hurry up and gear and I'm going to be dealing with it in Heavensgard going "Can we just have a dungeon party? The lands are tough and these DRKs are atrocious"
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Telluride - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 11:41 AM)Melkire Wrote: By that admittedly old-school logic, I don't see any issues with expansion content requiring progressiom through the pre-existing narrative, barring the sole exception of the new jobs. If those are also gated for good reasons - narrative, or technical limitations - then I can understand and accept the situation as-is.
A lot of our discussion is hinging on a question that, as far as I know, remains unanswered:
Will brand new characters be able to select the new jobs and get to ANY of the new content?
As has already been discussed, if someone is lured to the game for the first time by the offers of flying on dragons and firing shotguns at everything, and they find they can't DO these things without grinding through everything else, then we'll have an unsatisfied new customer. If SE doesn't really care about that, and is only aiming the expansion at established players, then it's their decision, but from a financial standpoint, isn't the smartest one they could pick.. IF their goal is to make money off the expansion.
Returning players will have a bit of grind to do, too. For someone who got through most of the story, got to, say, ilvl 100 or so, and is lured back by Shiny New Stuff, they may or may not be put off by all the catch up they're gonna do, and we've had plenty of arguing about Steps of Faith already.
I agree with Aya that we can't really invoke WoW as a comparison; otherwise, we gotta invoke every other game out there. OPINION WARNING: WoW's position in gaming was brought on by good timing, heavy earlier investment and a powerful lack of effective competition at the time of its meteoric rise, and it's surviving on accessibility and the numbers game. But at the risk of violating my own warning, I could compare things to Age of Conan, also, which started offering existing players the choice of starting a new character at level 50(out of 80, at the time), giving idle characters free experience (therefore removing some alt grind), and now I think that game will even let a new character be made at level 80. Now, AoC isn't exactly a powerhouse in the game market, so the comparison may not be all that apt.
I'd also like to see FFXIV lighten up on a game policy that contributes to the difficulty of making alts: the heavy restrictions that prevent a player from sending gear to alts. Compared to other MMO's, ours seems to HATE HATE HATE HATE the idea that the thousand hours you might spend getting gear could result in sending a nice piece or two of what you collected to an alt; hell, we can't even send GIL to our own alts without the intercession of another player. Sellable gear for the 50+ set is ridiculously expensive to make, and thus rather expensive to buy, therefore forcing alts into the dungeon grind. It seems an odd decision in a game that so endorses crafting as to let any character potentially make anything... but then, this could descend into a downward spiral about the game's economy that probably won't go anywhere until we know how the expansion is going to affect the market. Are we going to get flooded with great new gear for lvls 50-60, gear that is easy to get? Or is it gonna be stingy? The answer will have major repercussions not just on leveling, but on making gil, and the craft system.
Now, one could argue that discussing alts could be irrelevant, since FFXIV is a game that seems inherently unkind to alts (why we have eight character slots is a weird mystery to me, considering this design decision...), but the Expansion is introducing a new RACE for the first time since 2.0, and three classes that we're told don't behave like any previous ones and start at level 30, and which we're told may be gatelocked so as to be inaccessible to new players. The result is that what we're going to see will be a very solid confirmation from SE about whether they really CARE about the new player money, or if this expansion is truly aimed 100% at persistent, patient existing players who have appeased the Designer Gods by tromping through the (not always well-written, I'm sorry but it is true) MSQ.
What scares me about it is how really hush-hush SE has been about a LOT of these questions. We're less than a month from release, and we don't have (as of today, May 26) answers for a lot of very, very relevant questions that directly impact... dun dun DUUNNNNNN... people's willingness to preorder this thing. After seeing so many friends get burned by other games' offers of "Pay Us Now, Find Out About Game Later" (I'm looking at you, Everquest Next, and every "Founder's Package' ever offered for games that tanked), my Suspicion Sense is tingling.
I'm reading back up at all this... and seeing how I've been wandering about from topic to topic. Eh, gonna leave it as is, because it seems weird that we don'y yet have answers to some very, very critical questions in the home stretch of this expansion, and at the same time that we're being told to preorder and Please Look Forward To It.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 12:21 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I have nothing against new players. However given the choice between no new players and new entitled/unskilled players, I would rather have no new players.I wish you the best of luck with that one.