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+--- Thread: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? (/showthread.php?tid=11578)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 04:06 PM)Ryoko Wrote: it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade.
I think this (the "most of us" part) is debatable.
It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Marisa - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 07:20 PM)Naunet Wrote:(05-25-2015, 04:06 PM)Ryoko Wrote: it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade.
I think this (the "most of us" part) is debatable.
It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."
Now here's something we can agree on. The fact that almost 1/3rd of existing classes won't be playable from the start does seem like an un-fun mechanic for new players.Â
As for the Warcraft thing, I guess this might not be that kind of crowd. But believe me when I say (and any other former WoW player will tell you) that SE is following Blizzard's path pretty closely, and nothing they do surprises us because of that.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 08:10 AM)Steel Wolf Wrote: Really really good post here, though I will have to disagree with a few points, respectfully. Â The requirement for people to come together and clear content is part of the draw of MMOs for many, and considering that was the only way one could play XI, it's a good enough nod to that design mindset while still streamlining (mostly) the ways people can pull together.
Now, obviously, that doesn't work for everyone...and I still feel like the item level gating and level gating for basic-ass quality of life features is probably the dumbest decision in MMOs since "no chat bubbles for you". Â But as someone who played MMOs mostly solo and was terrified of dungeoneering upon my return to XIV, the sense of community that comes out of needing to group up is palpable. Â It's not warm and snuggly at all times, and there's still folks who just DF to use people as tools instead of people, but having done LOTS of solo-friendly MMO'ing, there is something to be said for how making grouping mandatory draws people together, even if only temporarily.
That's why I specified a rando FC rather than one you've carefully selected and want to be a part of. I'm not against forcing people through group content compared to what most infer. I'm against doing it when there's going to be a dearth of players at that level. The problem isn't forcing people - it's making a system where you have to do it when there won't be that many players at that level, forcing you through extra hoops rather than what you are technically supposed to do (queue up through duty roulette, complete).
And if anyone is saying they will obviously fix this, only one thing to say to that.
What's your source?
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Marisa - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 09:08 PM)undefined Wrote: And if anyone is saying they will obviously fix this, only one thing to say to that.
What's your source?
I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will.Â
Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 09:21 PM)Ryoko Wrote: I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will.Â
Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.
No source, no evidence.
And consider the answers to this thread : how would it alienate the playerbase?
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Gone. - 05-25-2015
(05-24-2015, 07:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: GW2's entire world and game design is completely different from ARR's. There's no point trying to use that as an example when the two games share almost no mechanics to speak of.
The class mechanics alone make it impossible for them to change things that drastically. Unless they completely retooled the way attributes work in the game, there would be no reason to pick anything other than the most optimal stat mixes as players already do now. And that would be one seriously major undertaking, to say the least.
And if you've never seen balance issues with horizontal gear, I can only assume you never played FFXI, which is where those issues were really noticeable and a large part of why FFXIV is itemized the way it is.
GW2's form of horizontal gear is mostly meaningless anyway. Once you have your optimal stat mix you have zero incentive to get another set. A huge part of what people want from horizontal gear is for each piece to have more meaning than simple ilvls. GW2 does NOT accomplish this. In that regard, its gear system is a failure.
It's a perfectly fair example of an MMO that does equipment better than its contemporaries, action oriented or not. To dismiss it is to miss my point entirely.
I didn't say it wouldn't be a difficult undertaking, either, or even a practical one, just saying that it is possible and by all means the superior option.
And no, I didn't play FFXI; I avoided it like the plague due to the notorious level of tedium, the very reason I disagree with item level as a mechanic to begin with. Tedium is bad game design, plain and simple. It may suit the grinder with no life outside of their chosen game, but anyone else is more or less sacrificed in turn for it.
Also, no, the horizontal progression was not meaningless, not one bit. Every class could make use of several stat combos depending on build and situation; this was especially true if you played all three game modes. Perhaps you didn't step out of FotM builds, but trust me, it was definitely there.
This sort of variation is something I see requested for on the official FFXIV forums quite frequently. Unfortunately, the only way to do it is to ditch ilevel and go full horizontal, making the gear we find actually valuable for more than six months.
Sorry, but I hate throwing things out that should be perfectly usable for many years to come. I wish I could say this about what my characters have now, but it's ultimately all disposable making the effort ultimately pointless in the end.
(05-24-2015, 07:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: GW2's style is to have permanent story developments that completely and irreversibly change sections of the game world. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT? There is no way to replay sections of the story that you missed out on. This is one of my biggest complaints about the way GW2 does things.
I mean, they could have Ishgard permanently open their doors to everyone after a mass story event... that no one could ever replay or experience again because it was a one-time deal. I'm pretty sure the amount of bitching that would occur would be just as astronomical as what did happen to Arenanet when they did the same thing. No, even greater, because at least in GW2's case a fair chunk of the playerbase doesn't give a toss about its story whereas Final Fantasy is a completely different matter.
That being said, they could at least give us access to classes without having to play through main story content and going through the ilvl grind... but apparently they decided against that. I don't know the thought process behind why they made that decision, but I can only assume they thought long and hard about it before making it. Or at least, I would hope as much.
I do agree that being able to skip all the unlocking with alts would be a great change, however. That's one thing that FFXIV does really, really poorly.
That was living story. I'm not talking living story, I'm talking the original, variable quest line the game launched with which has always been optional. As soon as a player makes it through the short and painless racial introduction, they are free to roam about and approach the game as they see fit. This is, by all means, the best way design an MMO from the ground up. One should not have to be forced through a predefined story with a character they made themselves, certainly not to the degree FFXIV does.
And for the record, I'm really not that attached to the FFXIV story because when it comes down it, it's not mine. If I want to be told a story, I will play a single player game or watch a movie, of which I have many already. I'm here to build my own legacy, not someone else's. Now granted, I have to make some sacrifice as this type of game design is no longer in vogue with MMOs, but FFXIV could be doing a lot better than it is now. I'm honestly afraid to see how things will look years from now if SQX doesn't address things now and you should, too, because frankly? It'll be a mess at best and impenetrable at worst.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Marisa - 05-25-2015
(05-25-2015, 09:44 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(05-25-2015, 09:21 PM)Ryoko Wrote: I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will.Â
Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.
No source, no evidence.
And consider the answers to this thread : how would it alienate the playerbase?
Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - BroodingFicus - 05-26-2015
(05-25-2015, 07:20 PM)Naunet Wrote: It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."
Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.
I've never played an MMO that brought out new jobs/classes with an expansion and then said you can't be them until you are almost max level anyway. The new classes start at 30 anyroad so it isn't as if the 35/40/45/50 etc job quests don't exist. I'm just still at a loss as to the reasoning aside from 'we can'. Â Â
(05-25-2015, 11:56 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.
If they go through with locking the new classes/jobs behind level, item level /and/ main scenario progression then they are already essentially doing just that to any new player who want to be one of the three new jobs. Only you could probably actually grind item levels faster than you could grind out all that other stuff even if you click with vicious fury through every story quest. Don't get me wrong. I love what Yoshi has done. Obviously since I'm still paying monthly and I still preordered HW. But common sense has not always triumphed. Ex. Player housing, free company housing, segregating pvp by grand company, throwing guildhests in as part of the main scenario once you are already far beyond them being of benefit etc. Sometimes it feels as if they forget this is an MMO and not a single player RPG.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Melkire - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 04:08 AM)BroodingFicus Wrote: Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.
The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.
Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - BroodingFicus - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 04:17 AM)Melkire Wrote:(05-26-2015, 04:08 AM)BroodingFicus Wrote: Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.
The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.
Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.
I saw it on a wiki as well saying that the guilds were in Ishgard but I'm always iffy about trusting those. I don't doubt that its confirmed though. My issue with it is that yes it is unfriendly to alts but FFXIV has been from the start. Being a pain for roleplayers? I think we have all become accustomed to that in almost any MMO since we often the minority. A proud and fierce minority but a minority nonetheless. But it is also not great for new people who want to play the new jobs. They will need to level 1-50, meet item level requirements and complete the story which has become a novel at this point. After that they can get the quest and will then need to level 30-50 again to do the new content as the new class. If I could think of a benefit it wouldn't seem as odd. Wishing doesn't make it so but sitting quietly sends the message it is a good practice.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Cato - 05-26-2015
More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - BroodingFicus - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 04:37 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.Â
I don't mind going through the story. Ok. I mind. I hate it but I have done it four times now for the alts I wanted and would do it a 5th in a heart beat if I could be an Au Ra Astrologian. Its at least good experience pts/gil in some cases and by the time I reach 50 I feel like I know what I'm doing as that job. Going through the story as a place holder class just so I can then be forced to level 30-50 again as the class I wanted from the beginning is where I take issue. I'll put in the effort and as RPers I think most people here would too. However this set up is the equivalent of tying a cement block to a duck and saying the duck drowned because it was too lazy to put in the effort. (no ducks were harmed in the making of this comment)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 05-26-2015
As much as everyone likes to complain about this, FFXIVs lengthy main quest, and the issues with alts.
Remember FFXIV is basically the /only/ healthy subscription MMO in western countries at the moment besides WoW. Perhaps they they have accomplished that that, but not following all the decisions and policies that other failed subscriptions MMOs have done. Lots of people play FFXIV, and it is a game that people often say can't exist. I hear often from media outlets that subscription MMOs are dead.
Could they do better? Assuredly. However comparing it to other MMOs besides WoW (and WoW basically just coasts along on inertia, so few lessons are to be learned there anymore) is sort of a strange exercise because all those MMOs have failed in their original goal to be subscription. I think the choices that you may not like, come of the fact it's a lone wolf in a F2P market, and that means its a different animal.
Cases like GW2 are a different story, as they were built from the ground up for a different finance model.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 05-26-2015
(05-25-2015, 11:56 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.
We've mentioned nothing of cackling. Just that this is something that has literally not come up in any of the materials presented for Heavensward and that until they actually say "this is our plan for new characters once they reach 50" all of it is speculation. The fact is, they're not speaking an iota about it and that is more worrying than them actually going out and stating that.
(also, having experience in development does not make you immune to making mistakes or making bad assessments of what people want)
(05-26-2015, 05:02 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Could they do better? Assuredly. However comparing it to other MMOs besides WoW (and WoW basically just coasts along on inertia, so few lessons are to be learned there anymore) is sort of a strange exercise because all those MMOs have failed in their original goal to be subscription. I think the choices that you may not like, come of the fact it's a lone wolf in a F2P market, and that means its a different animal.
There is one lesson most people are forgetting - they've released numerous expansions in the past with relatively great success, and even the most "unfriendly" expansion released, Burning Crusade, you could move onto the expansion content 2 levels before max level, no extra content to be done other than reaching 58, and speaking to a NPC that was right next to the Dark Portal. Hardly a large time commitment.
Considering how much of western MMOs they put into the game, I'm surprised they didn't get that memo.
(05-26-2015, 04:37 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: More players need to realise that if they want to invest in an alt in a game such as this then they need to actually invest. If somebody feels like it's too much of a chore to go through the MSQ's for a second time on a different character then that, to me, is a sign that they should reconsider bothering with an alt to begin with.
A player that is just on an alt likely has ways to mitigate the issue anyway. Skipping cutscenes, a pre-established network of people to help them level, knowledge of the classes and how they interact with one another, ways to make XP faster, etc.
I'm arguing as a player who first subscribes to the game post-Heavensward.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 05-26-2015
(05-26-2015, 04:17 AM)Melkire Wrote: The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.
Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.
Do you think Yoshi is uninterested in pulling in new players? Because advertising astrologian, machinist, and dark knight in the expac and then giving a big "F you" to new players who were lured in by those jobs is NOT good game design.
As for the likelihood of SE making some big mistakes regarding the ilvl restrictions funneling players through outdated content... They've made some pretty poor design decisions in the past. It's certainly believable that they would do so again.