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+--- Thread: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? (/showthread.php?tid=11578)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aaron - 06-09-2015
SO YOU WERE THAT SECOND WARREN CASTILLE!?
I thought I was going psycho
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:06 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.
... shit now I want to try and sequence break the game to get into Ishgard early just to make SURE they did actually proof against that.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 06:27 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(06-09-2015, 03:06 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.
... shit now I want to try and sequence break the game to get into Ishgard early just to make SURE they did actually proof against that.
That is an elegant way of doing it.
I think it would be cool if they did it this way. Available whenever you can fight your way to the trainer.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - McBeefâ„¢ - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Just a couple of shotgun points to bring up, in no particular order:
-Since this thread was created I leveled 2 alts to 2.55 content. Nobody knows who they are because I made sure to do it on my own, without riding reputation or friends for help.
-I'm pretty sure every expansion in WoW made me replay the entire series of expansions if I started a new character. I made a monk? I have to replay Cata/BC/Wrath/Panda/Warlords to get current. Unless I shell out real cash, by the by.
-Until recently, if someone wanted to play DK and was new to the game, they had to start at 1, hit 55, then redo everything.
-People here seem to be intentionally ignoring the newspost where Yoshi said exp and gear rewards were being streamlined to alleviate the 2.1-2.55 bore. New players will likely be level 51 or 52 upon hitting 3.0's content.
-New players won't be bothered by having to redo content because they'll be doing it for the first time
-New players who want to play new classes should be used to the MMO design of "Nope, do the boring grind first."
-If they're not, they won't buy the expansion.
-Seriously, you could have had multiple brand new classes to 50 and waiting for fantasia (included with the expansion!) by now
B-but warren.... other mmos let me play the stuff right away...
And its so much work...
And *farts*
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-09-2015
Also, Provoke outside of raids is a crutch for tanks unable to do their job properly the first time. And if you want to raid but you're bitching about needing to level a cross-class...
Well, I question your dedication to raiding.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 06:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Also, Provoke outside of raids is a crutch for tanks unable to do their job properly the first time. And if you want to raid but you're bitching about needing to level a cross-class...
Well, I question your dedication to raiding.
Yep, but you're still gonna get chewed out for not having it regardless of your personal beliefs on Provoke.
Provoke is a crutch against bad players. Whether you or your party.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Just a couple of shotgun points to bring up, in no particular order:
-Since this thread was created I leveled 2 alts to 2.55 content. Nobody knows who they are because I made sure to do it on my own, without riding reputation or friends for help.
It's still relevant content at this point. More people will be queuing than when Heavensward is actually released.
You also have the advantage of knowing how the game plays and what pitfalls to avoid, something a new player might or might not have.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -I'm pretty sure every expansion in WoW made me replay the entire series of expansions if I started a new character. I made a monk? I have to replay Cata/BC/Wrath/Panda/Warlords to get current. Unless I shell out real cash, by the by.
You were only limited by level, and could go into expansion zones at any time regardless of your level (though for Shattrath/Dalaran while it was relevant content, you needed a mage that has Portal : Shattrath/Dalaran to do so).
To be more precise :
BC : 58
WotLK : 68
Cata : 80 (first time they enforced max level to continue with the expansion - yes, a lot of players raged against that because Wrath was when people really started leveling a ton of alts. Only two extra levels.)
Mists : 90
WoD : 95
Since I only played up until Mists, I can only say that until that time, you could bypass most expansion content other than the quests that got you access to those, so long as you hit the requisite level. Which is impossible to do here (say you were one of the many people who hates the MSQ and decided to skip the entirety of it, you would not have access to Ishgard. WoW would allow you to do that because it doesn't give a shit.)
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -Until recently, if someone wanted to play DK and was new to the game, they had to start at 1, hit 55, then redo everything.
DK started at 55, so they did not need to redo 55 levels of content. They needed to do 3 levels to get to 58 in order to get to Burning Crusade level. They skipped vanilla entirely.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -People here seem to be intentionally ignoring the newspost where Yoshi said exp and gear rewards were being streamlined to alleviate the 2.1-2.55 bore. New players will likely be level 51 or 52 upon hitting 3.0's content.
I haven't and have been mentioning most of these when relevant. So far, other than "priority to new players in Low-Level queues for MSQ content" I've seen nothing that'd alleviate the only real problem they'll be facing. 30-50 content will have current players leveling the new jobs so no real problem there.
(Also they've only mentioned the Armory bonus, not additional XP from what I gather. Additional rewards are in and I speculated about those earlier on in the thread.)
The problem isn't the iLevel grind (which should be updated to 110 btw because that is what they've said in the same interview) so much than the lack of available players at that level during Heavensward. I honestly do not believe they'll reach 52 during 2.1-2.55 too - 51 is a possibility if they overdo dungeons.
51? Yeah, but a million XP minimum is what I expect from 51 to 52 if they want to keep their promise of 50-60 being as long as base game. 1-15 is three hours while falling asleep at keyboard.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -New players won't be bothered by having to redo content because they'll be doing it for the first time
Two words : DPS Queues.
Terribad now, DANGER !!!!!! TERROR HORROR level for outdated content. 30-50 should be okay since there should be approximately a fuckton of players doing DRK/AST but as soon as they're 50 if their asses aren't in HW dungeons they're doing it wrong.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -New players who want to play new classes should be used to the MMO design of "Nope, do the boring grind first."
If you mean "play the class at max level", sure. This isn't the case, here.
Get to 50, complete MSQ, go to Ishgard, revert to 30 with new Job, grind to 50, enjoy new content.
Typically, a MMO that releases a new class will have the following steps :
Level up until new content.
Not exactly the same deal.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -If they're not, they won't buy the expansion.
Or the game at all if we're talking about new players.
(06-09-2015, 06:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -Seriously, you could have had multiple brand new classes to 50 and waiting for fantasia (included with the expansion!) by now
I'm actually waiting until the expansion to level my alts just to see how bad it will be. No sense in arguing here if I'm not willing to live it.
(BTW : I'll have a tank and a DPS and likely I won't be leveling them until much further in the expansion's life cycle. My planned Au Ralt will also be doing the path to Ishgard into DRK revisit of the old dungeons!)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Addison - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 12:56 PM)Naunet Wrote: Because I don't want to play a class I don't enjoy longer than absolutely necessary? Why else did I pick to level WHM first on my main and only later go back to boost acn and thm to needed levels for cross-classing? The level grind without quests is horrendously boring, made even less bearable by having to play a class I don't want to.
Is this you? Because if so, I fail to see what you're complaining about. You're 50. Twice over. I'm going to assume that during your time as a WHM and ARC, you did the MSQ. And if that's the case, you've already met the requirements to unlock the new classes. Congratulations. What exactly is your problem with a requirement you've already met? It sounds like you're complaining for the sake of complaining.
(06-09-2015, 01:10 PM)Aya Wrote: I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement. This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design. Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.
I'm curious as to what MMOs you've played then, because no MMO starts you at the 'end' the second a new expansion is dropped. There is a certain amount of "ready time" one has to accomplish before making it to that point in nearly every MMO out there. Whether it's currency farming, rep/faction grinding, or just grinding the same 4 dungeons over and over to get yourself gear ready for the expansion, everything requires some amount of effort and time.
Perhaps I'm not seeing the difference between the MSQ in this game, which actually rewards you along the way, and say....the CoP missions in FFXI, which doesn't give you jack shit in terms of quest EXP (nothing in FFXI gave quest EXP. Ever.) and you hardly got any tangible reward until the very, bitter end.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-09-2015
Sorry for the double post.
(06-09-2015, 06:33 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: That is an elegant way of doing it.Â
I think it would be cool if they did it this way. Available whenever you can fight your way to the trainer.
I don't mean that - I mean, forcing the game to put you into Ishgard proper since the entrance will likely be blocked by MSQ. Likely through a glitch. Typically, you'd also do a level check or a MSQ check on the trainers when it comes to offering up the Jobs.
It'd be weird if they didn't check for that quite frankly, but I've seen dumber shit as a QA tester so.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-09-2015
My lump reply to Kellach to keep the post from being Xbox-huge:
I've long-stated that the 2.1 redundant content and subsequent relic grinds were to keep high level people playing to lubricate the DF for low level folks. That's why Hests become relevant, that's why low level roulette exists, that's why Atma books sent you into a ton of under-content dungeons. It's not a coincidence that the new jobs start at level 30, and anyone thinking or saying otherwise isn't looking at this from a game design side of things. Hint: It's to help everyone else, not you.
So is the problem that new players won't have old players running roulettes? What about other new players? I'll remind you that at 2.0 launch, Balmung was a legacy server. My ass was grinding Sastasha NM in my AF and already as a job. Somehow we survived. If there's no new players, there's no problem. If there's a lot of new players, there's still no problem. So what's the problem?
SE has declared, by virtue of locking jobs behind 3.0 content, that there were no MCH, AST or DRKs present in the 2.x storyline. Everyone can bitch and whine and cry about it if they like, but that's what's SE declared.
Also you could go into WoW expansions 2 levels earlier than the cap, but you still had to do a ton of questing through Outlands and Northrend and Pandaria and New!Vanilla before you could move on. There's also the catch that, sure, you could go earlier than intended, but you couldn't actually DO anything if you didn't hit those strict X8 breakpoints. Got me on the DK thing, though.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 07:05 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: My lump reply to Kellach to keep the post from being Xbox-huge:
I've long-stated that the 2.1 redundant content and subsequent relic grinds were to keep high level people playing to lubricate the DF for low level folks. That's why Hests become relevant, that's why low level roulette exists, that's why Atma books sent you into a ton of under-content dungeons. It's not a coincidence that the new jobs start at level 30, and anyone thinking or saying otherwise isn't looking at this from a game design side of things. Hint: It's to help everyone else, not you.
So is the problem that new players won't have old players running roulettes? What about other new players? I'll remind you that at 2.0 launch, Balmung was a legacy server. My ass was grinding Sastasha NM in my AF and already as a job. Somehow we survived. If there's no new players, there's no problem. If there's a lot of new players, there's still no problem. So what's the problem?
SE has declared, by virtue of locking jobs behind 3.0 content, that there were no MCH, AST or DRKs present in the 2.x storyline. Everyone can bitch and whine and cry about it if they like, but that's what's SE declared.
Also you could go into WoW expansions 2 levels earlier than the cap, but you still had to do a ton of questing through Outlands and Northrend and Pandaria and New!Vanilla before you could move on. There's also the catch that, sure, you could go earlier than intended, but you couldn't actually DO anything if you didn't hit those strict X8 breakpoints. Got me on the DK thing, though.
If there's little new players
.Also... Guildhests are relevant? HOW?
In so far as the breakpoints, you're arguing in terms of XP lock - Most of the people arguing are specifying MSQ lock since that goes beyond just hitting a requisite level.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 06:55 PM)Addison Wrote: I'm curious as to what MMOs you've played then, because no MMO starts you at the 'end' the second a new expansion is dropped. There is a certain amount of "ready time" one has to accomplish before making it to that point in nearly every MMO out there. Whether it's currency farming, rep/faction grinding, or just grinding the same 4 dungeons over and over to get yourself gear ready for the expansion, everything requires some amount of effort and time.Yes, but everything you mention occurs in the new expansion. New players are expected to level up through the old content (usually in a process that is streamlined and made easier by the expansion) and then hit the gear, rep, etc. grinds of the new expansion relatively quickly.
Gating new players through the MSQ and all of the content, and time investment that involves in addition to everything mentioned above (this in no way alleviates rep grinding, gear, etc) is rough! Leveling to 50 isn't enough, you still have to complete all of the level 50 MSQ content, and all of the pre-50 MSQ content. Alt characters (such as Warren's) can do this quickly (but still tediously) by skipping all of the dialogue and cut scenes, is that what we expect of brand new players as well, or should they just anticipate a several month time lag from when they start the game before they actually get to see Heavensward?Â
Try selling this concept to someone who has a slight interest in FF but doesn't know much about it, and see the sort of reaction you get. Yes, there are fans of it, since its related to FF's single-player style story line. That's fine and good, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and perhaps its a good thing that someone's made a game like this that prefers such heavy gating of accessibility.Â
I don't (I prefer to get to play the game doing fun stuff with friends). That doesn't mean i think everything should be given to players on a silver platter. That doesn't mean I think people who buy the expansion should start at level 60 with raid gear. I don't even mind if the new classes are gated to high levels. I simply think that they're asking so much of new players before they can take part in anything current, that they're going to turn many away.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-09-2015
They forced people into doing them during 2.1's slog, along with Qarn. They also serve a general purpose of introducing people to MMO concepts: Using switches and items, avoiding bad things, prioritizing adds, learning how to play your job.
Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.
Trufax: Locking new jobs behind 3.0 gates only inhibits people wanting alts. It doesn't harm them. It doesn't harm new players. The boogieman of "Oh, well what if someone only wanted to play AST and they can't and they don't buy the game?"
GOOD. That person wasn't leveling THM for Switftcast anyway.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aya - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 07:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that? It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 07:28 PM)Aya Wrote: I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that? It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.
It's single player until you get thrown into dungeons. The posited argument is that there's going to nobody running these dungeons and that'll strand new players. This is despite the fact that there will be NEW players to run the content with, first and foremost, and that secondly we don't know if there's going to be some "MSQ roulette" added to the Duty Finder to help alleviate this. Remember, there wasn't always Low Roulette! People complained a lot on official channels to get a fix for this and that's part of what Roulettes offered on debut, and it helped a lot.
New players stranded will find ways to complete content, even if it means shouting for help. I guess I just don't understand it personally; I was a new player in a lot of MMOs post-launch and never had trouble finding my footing. It just takes some effort and willingness to-
OH. I get it now.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Melkire - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 07:28 PM)Aya Wrote:(06-09-2015, 07:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that? It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.
You mean less? Because new players are getting buffed experience, more gear from quests, and other perks that are meant to ease the trip through ARR, according to recent developer commentary... new players will have an easier time, not a harder one. Time commitment won't be any worse than it was for us, either.