Hydaelyn Role-Players
How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? (/showthread.php?tid=11124)

Pages: 1 2

How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - N'velhi Tia - 04-16-2015

Quote:“Conjury calls upon the elements of earth, wind, and water and concentrates them to a potency at which spells can be weaved. Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings. A wand or cane made from unworked wood is then utilized to focus the aether until it manifests as the desired spell. Versed also in magicks that restore and strengthen, conjurers are regarded as accomplished healers.”

—Game Description

Quote:“In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection.
To then mold that aether into sorcery, the thaumaturge makes use of a scepter or staff, within which is housed a medium—a natural stone imbued with magical properties. Thus armed, the thaumaturge is capable of wreaking considerable havoc via ruinous spells and curses.”

—Game Description

Quote:“Adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within occult grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing him to produce myriad powerful spells.
Using the selfsame symbols to unlock the latent power contained within gemstones, arcanists are also able to summon forth the familiar known as Carbuncle to carry out their bidding.”


—Game Description

So, during my time RPing on Balmung, I've seen magically-inclined character gravitate more towards the in-game spells, while I imagine there are many, many more; nor have I ever seen a thaumaturge cast anything akin to curses, mainly just tossing fireballs.

So, how do you do it?

Is there even a limit to the amount of spells one could potentially cast? Where do you draw the line?

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Warren Castille - 04-16-2015

Creativity, mostly. The Runestone is frequented by people using magic to a lot of creative degrees; In the first night there I saw rolling flame wheels, knives made of ice and conjured lava waterfalls. All of it made perfect sense in the "manipulating the elements" sort of style.

Thaumaturge curses, though, are probably chalked up to that damned 1.0 split. You can see what the class used to be capable of here and using filters you can see all of the old attacks for all classes. 1.0 THM was a much different beast. 1.0 CNJ, too. Technically speaking, Arcanist is vastly improved from what it was in 1.0 as well.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - FreelanceWizard - 04-16-2015

In a magically-oriented FC, this comes up from time to time. Smile In general, most people seem to stake out what they're good at and what they're bad at magically, and that provides some basic limits. Beyond that, for us, the further afield from "what you see in game" a person tries to do, the more difficult it is and the more preparation, experimentation, and research are typically required to construct and cast the spell. This jives with Mysterium's generally "Hermetic" feel and arcanima slant, where magic is a matter of both talent and knowledge.

Within this framework, there's not really a limit to how many spells might come about, other than the OOC limitations of story plausibility, explicit lore, fairness to your fellow players, and consent. We've had modified Sleep spells to calm people down, barriers of elemental aether, arcanima-boosted fire magicks, and so on.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Hammersmith - 04-16-2015

Step 1: Geek the mage first.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Warren Castille - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 09:06 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: Step 1: Geek the mage first.

[Image: shoot.png]

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Hammersmith - 04-16-2015

Realtalk:

I burnt out on magic a long time ago.  I encountered a bias towards "Magic solves/does" everything that just killed that candle in me playing it in most RP environments as a center-point for a character a long time ago.

I still do things with it.  I have things for it.  But I learned a good lesson from the old World of Darkness mage system and a thing it had in there: 

Why use magic for something you can do without using it? Why risk consequence? Why is there Consequence? Why do you need to consider it? Why are you reaching for magic instead of just doing it the normal way? What's the cost for cutting the corners off of Reality As We Know It and why was it worth it?

The answer's vanity, sloth, or worse most of the time.  As such I treat magic as a kind of mental tarpit.  A power sink people get sucked into.

It's not better, it's different.  You can pick up a rock and throw it, or you can use "magic" to throw a stone at someone.  You can set someone on fire with a bottle of booze and a match, or you can use "magic" to set them on fire.

Sure.  You can have your person conjure fireballs and lava waterfalls and giant ice shurikens.  Ultimately magic's just a tool though, one doing normal things will almost always equal, in almost any situation.  Monster coming: "Stab it or Magically shoot it"

"I need food" "Conjure it, hunt/scavenge it", 

And that's where it gets ugly in RP.  People can, and sometimes do, use magic as a solve all.  Which is boring.  Remove the struggle, remove the trouble, remove the inconvenience from something, and there's no point in RPing.  Super invulnerable magic shield lololol I can always win even though I'm 12 years old, immortal, and a god because magic, isn't fun.  It's boring, disrespectful to the people around you also RPing, and amateurish, being without consideration and thought for the investment required to do these things.

Limits are a requirement.  Treating magic like a tool is how that limit works best for me.  Things it can do that normal labor can't, like summons, some senses, golems, the entire Primal Problem, sometimes quick healing, are great examples, but most of the time the thing it lets you skip is actual preparation and training to do it the normal way and, in trade, you have to train and prepare another way.

Balance is my "limit".  If it's a "Freebie" use of it, it's probably not worth using/is an abusive use of it.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Dasair - 04-16-2015

I am of the completely opposing view to Hammersmith.

I think magic is super freakin neat, and opens up a ton of possibilities for RP you couldn't otherwise have.

But I will also admit I am a fan of 'magic at a price'. I love how completely and utterly creepy it can be. How, if left unchecked, it might be the most messed up thing you ever have the (mis)fortune to encounter, especially to the caster using the magic. They, more than anyone, are likely to know the full extent of the 'prices' at hand, and would likely be the ones paying them. I mean, in a world where mere beliefs can have a physical manifestation under the right conditions, where Aether is very much connected to life and death, can and will solidify into natural formations if in high enough quantity, and too much of it is practically the equivalent of being radioactive, (among so much else) there are a lot of neat 'consequences' to be had for getting into it too heavily. The game itself provides with a number, both in passing and with some amount of focus.

And I suppose some people will look at that instead and see purely power to be utilized. But I see it very much as a give and take that can take a lot. The limits themselves, what 'the price' of power is, and its potential for how it does what it does are what makes it most interesting to me.

Furthermore, coming up with creative ways a magic user can utilize spells outside of sheer combat is half of the fun; granted, the downsides are what make it even better and open up interesting doors for RP. I know that I never built my character with much combat in mind. He has a lot of Aether, but actually using it well in combat (or 'well' at all) is an entirely different beast, and his fighting ability leaves much to be desired. It's sufficient so he can wander and not be killed stepping foot into the open, but it's nowhere near the prowess that I've seen other characters use, which is basically what I was hoping for.

Instead, a theme of his is much more 'how too much Aether can be a Real Problem and Gets In The Way of Everything', and has led to some interesting RP, nevermind given some neat conflict to the character and those who know him. He's looking for answers, and his interactions with others will determine where he goes and what he learns.

To me it's all much more a matter of thinking about the concepts further than merely all the potential virtues of a thing, and then consider at what cost the virtues come. That's where you can get some interesting writing opportunities.

(04-16-2015, 08:40 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Creativity, mostly. The Runestone is frequented by people using magic to a lot of creative degrees; In the first night there I saw rolling flame wheels, knives made of ice and conjured lava waterfalls. All of it made perfect sense in the "manipulating the elements" sort of style.

Thaumaturge curses, though, are probably chalked up to that damned 1.0 split. You can see what the class used to be capable of here and using filters you can see all of the old attacks for all classes. 1.0 THM was a much different beast. 1.0 CNJ, too. Technically speaking, Arcanist is vastly improved from what it was in 1.0 as well.

I'd also like to add that I am so glad you put that link there. I've been wondering for a while what this 1.0 Thaumaturge was about, and that list gives me some neat ideas. *u* ... I kind of wish it had stayed along those lines now, tbh.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Warren Castille - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 12:16 PM)Dasair Wrote: I'd also like to add that I am so glad you put that link there. I've been wondering for a while what this 1.0 Thaumaturge was about, and that list gives me some neat ideas. *u* ... I kind of wish it had stayed along those lines now, tbh.

A lot of people do. It might even "work" now, but 1.0's battle (and specifically, crossclass) system made it to the THM toolkit was just too damn good. THM was able to fulfill every single role and made other classes redundant.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Aya - 04-16-2015

Aya's magic is mostly in the way she moves her hips.  And that terrific power, I am afraid, simply has no limit!


(More seriously, I think its one of those things that depends entirely on the RP context.  In a general setting I'd try to keep the general utility of magic very, very limited.  Flashy and powerful use of something like that otherwise stands the possibility of alienating others whose challenges you've just trivialized.)

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Dasair - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 12:21 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: A lot of people do. It might even "work" now, but 1.0's battle (and specifically, crossclass) system made it to the THM toolkit was just too damn good. THM was able to fulfill every single role and made other classes redundant.

Gods, I can imagine. I was looking over it like 'woah, they have offensive, defensive, healing, and resurrection spells? Shit.' But then again, I have also heard Conjurer was super badass, had all the elements at their disposal, and could basically wipe the floor with anyone. And that Arcanist didn't exist at all, so. Seems like quite an overhaul.

In terms of now (and potentially RP), though, I'm much more interested in the themes of all those spells than anything. I'm really liking how Astral and Umbral magic were more along light and dark sounding lines, how the class was much more life/death/"beyond" sort of focused (like its roots claim it to be; it all makes a lot more sense now). And, of course, how much it sounds like a Thaumaturge who doesn't know what they're doing could have so much go horribly wrong.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Nebbs - 04-16-2015

The trick is to not limit yourself with magic but to let your powers and abilities add colour and flavour to the RP, rather than being the RP.

Why teleport when you can walk?
Why kill the enemy in a single blast when you can have some RP?
Why fix the problem in a snap when there is a game afoot?

Also I tend to play Nebbs with simple magic, like cantrips, and rely on their creative use rather than spell power. Entangling grass, swarm of bees, flying crockery etc.. Also charms to keep vermin from your corn that need renewing each week (nice little earner) and that sort of thing. Though if pushed she does flip out and her intent becomes catastrophic, which does not mean what happens it is just her attitude, and that is how she burnt down a house.

But always think, what is the least I could do with magic and how best could I do that. And failure is often better than success for RP Smile

If you must have ultimate power, be Gandalph and Yoda ... just act enigmatic and let the others solve the problems, after all they have to learn and you don't want to show your hand. Though playing such a character and giving it that gravitas and not acting is a tricky thing to pull off.

Anzu is a very capable fighter (think Samuri/Ninja) but plays the role of odd job man, he smiles at the Ninja's that clearly are what they want to keep hidden while he himself appears helpless or just fixing a broken fence.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - FreelanceWizard - 04-16-2015

(04-16-2015, 12:41 PM)Nebbs Wrote: If you must have ultimate power, be Gandalph and Yoda ... just act enigmatic and let the others solve the problems, after all they have to learn and you don't want to show your hand. Though playing such a character and giving it that gravitas and not acting is a tricky thing to pull off.

Since we're talking story considerations... Smile

Mostly, what I try to do is have L'yhta act as a "plot device" for others' stories. She'll offer possible solutions and approaches, but always note that they'll be difficult to do and potentially hazardous (as experimental magic always is). Success is never guaranteed, particularly when playing with forces that are just barely within the grasp of Man. She never jumps in and says, "A-ha! I have the solution right here, in my Fantasta-Defeat Your Enemy Spell I just came up with!" I've been on the receiving end of that in the past and, I agree, it's no fun.

So, ultimately, I let the needs of others dictate the boundaries of the magic. Magical healing is a great example of this. We know by lore that once you're dead, you're dead (more or less Smile ), but up to that point, magic can fix quite a bit. So, when someone looks to L'yhta for healing, I ask them OOC what they'd like her to offer and do for them. If the story says that magical healing is slow or ineffective, she's offer up with some metaphysical explanation for why it does that. If it's faster that normal, I'll cover that, too. The idea is for her to be a resource and a benefit to help a plot, not a hindrance that derails it or seizes the spotlight from others.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - ZacharyVolfire - 04-17-2015

As an arcanist and future dark knight.

I based all my arcane magic on mathimatical formulas. In which i controal anatomy and how fluids work with said formulas x= body y= poison (X+yx14-RES=Y*4-27/32) if its not a legit poison or disease nor a possible formula i can't cast it from my book or the spell will backfire..

On the matter of healing I use a bible i stole from Moogle's as the scriptures inside help heal.

As for the planned Dark Knight class i thin the dark aura/ energy will be based on emotional output of negativity. Maybe

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Faye - 04-17-2015

I try to find a certain... magical niche for each of my magical characters. Faye, for example, uses holy magic. I have another character that's your typical mage, general magic like using the elements. I have another character who is a necromancer. Another character who uses charms, illusions, darker oriented magic, etc. Much like you'd give a physical combatant character a specialty weapon, I try to limit my characters to a certain field of magic.

RE: How do you limit yourself w/ magic? - Paradox - 04-18-2015

Depends on the character for me. A'rklonn is my strongest magical character, and he uses most magical disciplines because his goal is to learn all sorcery. The thing is, he primarily excels in offensive elemental magic, meaning that his conjury is basically devoid of most healing, as is his Arcanima/Summoning formulae.  He's good at combining elements into multi-level effects (Such as combining Aero and Fire to widen the effects or burn up oxygen so melee combatants have a harder time), and he studies Void-Aether, or what he calls 'Negative Aster' as he's trying to actually create a new school of magic that's more akin to the umbral-element Thaumaturgy of 1.0.



Still, thanks to certain weaknesses, he is incapable of using cold or water magic, or any kind of 'light' or holy based magic. Basically, he's very good at doing all sorts of things with the magic he's got understanding of, but has great difficulty doing things with magic he doesn't have a predisposed affinity for. His magi-surgical enhancements also help with his magery, allowing him to do things he normally could not, but at a large cost. He tends to be cocky though, and often uses up too much power in flashy spells too early depending on who or what he's fighting. One of his biggest weaknesses is his ego and self assurance in his power, so he's just as likely to defeat himself.



In a sense, A'rklonn using varied magic is much like the Avatar or an Elemental Bender by way of example. Combinations, situational changes, and environmental adaptations, just without the martial arts element in most cases. A larger effect area or more than one or two elements naturally takes more time and focus unless he expends a huge amount of aether to compensate, but of course he cripples his other options later. This leads to the second limit, which is basically a no brainer: His Aether pool is finite despite being quite large, and since he can't access certain elements of nature like water from the land around him, his conjury is limited depending on his environment as well. Arcanima, while he uses it to a point, is mostly used for Egi-summoning to aid in his spellcraft.



His own perceptions of what's honorable in battle or proper in a fight keeps him from using poison or disease magics. Basically, I try to keep my spells within the realm of the magic used in the game, but don't stick to the actual 'spells' on my hotbars. Hotbar-linking or only using in game spells is some of the laziest magical combat RP there is IMO..I use it more as a guideline of what's possible, and go from there with creativity. You can do so much with fire than just fling balls of it.

Quote:I try to find a certain... magical niche for each of my magical characters.

Much the same here, Faye. Ark is my 'big flashy egotistical exploder wizard' type who relies on chaos and destruction and intimidation but sometimes lacks insight despite his experience, because physical and magical power's always solved his problems. I have another mage in the works who will deal totally with 'precision' magic; spell effects meant to disable, demoralize, and debilitate rather than outright kill. She's going to be a pure Arcanima caster with some Conjury knowledge on the side just for its use in biology. As a scientist she won't be the type to fight outright. Think of her like the TF2 medic; she'd fire the magical equivalent of 'syringes' with various negative effects in them to wear people down over time while using an Egi to defend her otherwise frail body.