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+--- Thread: When joining a FC becomes a job (/showthread.php?tid=18596)
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Teadrinker - 02-24-2017
I've always been of the mind that if someone complains that the application process is too rigorous then it means the application process is working for what they've tried to create.
The best thing a guild can do is be as forthright as possible about what they are and what they do. If people don't read your website but then check the box that they did then that's their fault.
When I shop for any kind of guild/fc (pve/rp whatever) I am scowering their websites or whatever they have at their disposal. I'm reading about how they do things, how they operate, what different ranks mean, etc. When I finally settle on something I usually feel pretty confident that I looked around to the best of my ability and I focused on what is the best fit for me and I have no problems with a rigorous application at that point. In fact, I'm happy to fill it out.
I like seeing guild leaders put a lot of detail and care into their rules and how they structure things. It means someone gave enough of a damn to sit at their computer and think forward and prepare which means people are obviously invested in the place which translates into longevity.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Damele - 02-26-2017
Im not sure if I should be proud of the thread I started or not. I started this as a way to poke fun at the process, whether it's good or bad. Regardless of how it is taken I do find it humorous to see people's responses.Â
I had one person message me with a bold statement, " You complain about applications thats probably why you will never be in a respectable FC, I know I wouldn't let you in mine."
I thought about it for some time and I have to agree with him. I may never get into his idea of respectable nor will I ever apply for his FC. I guess I will just have to stay with the group Im with now, enjoying their company and having fun.. Bummer......
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Lydia Lightfoot - 02-26-2017
I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.
In fact, what I've seen is something of a correlation between the seriousness of the guild's application process and the impact of the drama when it occurs. Relaxed guilds seemed, in my observation, to have more frequent instances of drama, but each instance lacks significant gravity. People go, perhaps, but they more or less go in the manner in which they came - there's some sass and some salt, but the whole situation is more or less over with in short order and life moves on (until the next small bout of drama). The more complicated and serious guilds, however, tend to inherently attract more complicated and serious players - which is likely their intent - but with this comes the increased likelihood that when one of these driven, passionate individuals inevitably creates drama, it's not going to be minor. Everyone in the guild will be involved, long-term RP stories will be destroyed over the OOC of it without any IC basis for the end of the RP (requiring huge efforts to get plots back on track), friendships will be ruined as people take sides, and some will even flat out quit the game after watching months of effort go to waste.
Is either better than the other? Nope! Guilds should do what they want.
 Just don't be deluded into thinking one method or the other can stop drama.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Damele - 02-26-2017
Sena.. Stop using logic!!
I have seen guilds that just invite those interested, no interview nothing, that work out great and really benefit from having non-like-minded people around. I have seen guilds that act like a special snowflake high school clique implode over drama. Its bound to happen with or without a long drawn out vetting process.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-26-2017
I haven't seen anyone here imply or say that vetting solves drama forever.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Tyndles - 02-26-2017
Hey at least its not like the other game that has an add on that auto spams invites to people not in a guild. lol
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Shuck - 02-26-2017
(02-26-2017, 05:45 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I haven't seen anyone here imply or say that vetting solves drama forever.
No, but I would argue that it doesn't even mitigate it. Due to being able to lie. Watch, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it right now.
Here we go. Get ready.
[lie]
I'm a generally likeable person who has no major personality flaws, and should totally be let into your guild. I am in no way argumentative, petty, or vindictive.
[/lie]
Except they don't tag it like I tag it. They're not good at tags. But I am the best at them.
Anyway, there's also a misconception floating around that a serious group needs a serious application process. I haven't found that to be true. We basically have an application process that I make up as I go, and we're pretty serious in tone. We like doing things in game. I mean, there's lines we don't bother crossing (like the token grind. Are you for real with this? Eat my balls, Squeenix. I'll just wait until comparable gear is for sale on the market. I'll make more gil by accident, my time is something I can't get back), but it's not like we show up, no pants on, being all "WHAT'S UP, OTHER FUCKERS IN THE INSTANCE, I THINK DOGS SHOULD VOTE."
On the original topic: Yeah, I still feel you. Kind of sucks sometimes, but when I see something I don't feel like doing in regards to a hobby, I just don't do it, dawg. I shrug, and I stroll.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-26-2017
The misconception is that you're doing it for drama at all. I'm really not doing it to weed out drama myself, drama is human nature - it doesn't matter how many times you vet or how many people you get in who fit the mold, people are naturally dramatic. Who hasn't fought with their friends that they've known in real life? We all have, nothing stops drama. I have stories of drama from all aspects of my life - this game, overwatch, work, friends. That's how people are.
I don't do it for that reason.
I do it to make sure we get people with the same kind of RP style as us (Low powerlevel, able to take criticism, lore complaint, like darker themes and long plotlines, like to do OOC game stuff, etc etc) than to stop "drama". Our app doesn't even have a "Tell us about yourself" section, it has a "Tell us about your goals"
(As an aside, I also hate the word drama, because some people take EVERYTHING as being drama, when it's just humans being humans yall)
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Teadrinker - 02-27-2017
Bottom line is drama starts with the people that ultimately WANT it there. This is a fact.
Vetting vs. Harsh Kicking Processes. Pick one.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-27-2017
(02-26-2017, 02:47 AM)Sena Varont Wrote: I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.
idk what experiences you've had but nah, can't say we've all had the same, so there's really no reason to try to tell anyone else what they've seen and how they feel when they've already gone on the record with something different. If we "know better," you think folks are lying for... fun, I guess? Idk.
Anywho.
It's a case where disproving a negative ends up difficult. You can't say for certain what drama your application process might have stopped because you wouldn't know if it would have happened until it did. Guilds still get drama no matter how carefully they screen, but who knows how much more they would have gotten without the application process? And I think there are times for guild officers with a thorough vetting process where you know you did definitely succeed in keeping someone toxic out of your FC.
I've rejected applications, or even just asked questions or requested someone change a detail about their character if they're to be approved to have them scream at me, or go around slandering my FC. I've turned down applicants who gave off too many red flags only to see screenshots and logs of them harassing people weeks or even days later. Were those people bound to cause problems in the FC? Absolutely.
Is it foolproof? No. Does it work? At least a little.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Sophia_Grave - 02-27-2017
I'd much rather be a part of an FC with stringent entry requirements than one without, and it has little to do with 'drama' (which, I have to add, is such a nothing term by this point).
First and foremost, going through an app that takes time shows a modicum of commitment and affirms interest. Back when I ran a few RP forums, I can't tell you how many times people would join with all the interest in the world, only to cap out at a post count short of 10 and disappear forever. That wouldn't bother me at all, if I and other admins hadn't helped them get acquainted with lore, build their OC, start threads with them, and do just about anything to hold on to new, active members. We'd even do free art sketches or of people's main OCs or otherwise help the non-artists after a while to encourage them to stay. Even with a long app, this still happens, but far less than it does without-- I've been on both sides. When I was browsing the FC/LS lists here, a lot of them interested me. Most still do, based on their sales pitch and a cursory look around their content. But I can't say I could give them all the attention either I or they deserve. Ultimately, I'm just tired of repeating the same meet and greet over and over with people that simply don't stick it out.
Secondly, tone is important to me. I try to stick with those who enjoy the same vein of RP that I do. I've seen apps that are perfectly valid, and yet don't really jive with my style of RP. Don't get me wrong, variety is very important, but there is a point where another person's RP can really ruin muh immershun. I joke, but some things I just can't respond to or followup on because I'm essentially in a different mindset than the other person. Its all well and good for different RP styles to occupy the same spaces, but it then becomes difficult to satisfy both parties, especially if you're in a leadership position and are writing content that is meant to be fun for all. I'll sit down and watch an episode of Rick and Morty, then switch over to Game of Thrones. They scratch different itches. Both are quality television. They do not mix.
This is how I keep RP fun for me, and it works. For me. It addresses all the issues that annoy me about RPing over the years. You can't parse for every foreseeable problem, but I have read some truly bizarre apps that make me relieved I didn't put in the time for someone who wants something I don't have. I wish them all the best of course, but I just can't entertain them and myself. And considering how sometimes you have to pull teeth for meaningful RP that goes deeper than surface level, I don't think that an app that takes a half hour or an hour to do is much to ask.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Lydia Lightfoot - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 07:37 AM)Faye Wrote:(02-26-2017, 02:47 AM)Sena Varont Wrote: I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.
idk what experiences you've had but nah, can't say we've all had the same, so there's really no reason to try to tell anyone else what they've seen and how they feel when they've already gone on the record with something different. If we "know better," you think folks are lying for... fun, I guess? Idk.
I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile.Â
You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 02:16 PM)Sena Varont Wrote: I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile.Â
You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.
You're coming in here accusing everyone with an opinion different from your own of being not only wrong, but also disingenuous for some mysterious, unspecified reason, and then expecting them not to take it "personally." Perhaps you only see me doing it a lot since you make such pretentious and accusatory posts regularly? Pot, meet kettle, and consider your own advice. All well and good when you get defensive and snide at others, but no one else is allowed to retaliate in kind, eh? A typical, transparent ploy to get someone else to "be the bigger person" so you won't have to and can sneak the last word in.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Sylentmana - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 04:49 PM)Faye Wrote:(02-27-2017, 02:16 PM)Sena Varont Wrote: I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile.Â
You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.
You're coming in here accusing everyone with an opinion different from your own of being not only wrong, but also disingenuous for some mysterious, unspecified reason, and then expecting them not to take it "personally." Perhaps you only see me doing it a lot since you make such pretentious and accusatory posts regularly? Pot, meet kettle, and consider your own advice. All well and good when you get defensive and snide at others, but no one else is allowed to retaliate in kind, eh? A typical, transparent ploy to get someone else to "be the bigger person" so you won't have to and can sneak the last word in.
You two keep at it and the mods will be having the last word when they lock the thread.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Uther - 02-27-2017
(02-27-2017, 05:09 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: You two keep at it and the mods will be having the last word when they lock the thread.
Getting a thread locked in this forum is a rite of passage.
Let the debate.... CONTINUEEEEEE!