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+--- Thread: When joining a FC becomes a job (/showthread.php?tid=18596)
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Shuck - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 04:17 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: THere's a lot of diplomacy behind a /gkick and it can be tough to navigate.
Having been doing the volunteer service that is Guild Leading for entirely too long (seriously, someone pay me for this), I've got a counter point from my experience.
The counter point is "No, there isn't."
This isn't to say that I don't field questions, or consider circumstances. Far from it. But resolutions are rare, and internet people constantly assume they're being attacked anyway. When I was young, and we were Misericorde on Warhammer Online, we had people that I should've kicked immediately. Instead, diplomacy was attempted. What "talking things out" tends to produce is an offender who becomes more insidious as time winds on.
They learn that doing things the way they've been doing is drawing attention. They learn that if they skirt under a line that's come into focus with lengthy talks, and reminders, and finger-wagging, they can keep doing what they've been doing with no resistance. Effectively, you train them to be a bigger problem, and then that bigger problem lodges itself so deeply in your ass that it would take an experimental drilling machine and a team of rogue geologists to get it out.
Fast forward almost a decade, and I haven't had a "guild drama" moment since 2008. I don't have those because when someone is being a shit, I get rid of them. That's not "there's a disagreement" that's not "They worded something harshly, and my ego is bruised by them not reassuring me that I'm precious, and special". That's counts of sexism, weird stalking, bizarre hair-triggers to non-issues (the individual from Warhammer flipped shit over a tank gearing more toward DPS, and more recently, an RPC member flipped shit over the fact that having a baby isn't literally magic) and one case where the guy in question was effectively a child in a man's body.
I'm not saying you should just kick whoever. I'm saying there's no room for diplomacy by the time kicking someone is called for. As far as I'm concerned, you can behave like a reasonable human being, or you can take your shitshow down the road.
On topic:
Part of me agrees with this assessment of weirdly long applications. The problem with questions is that people lie. I'm a shitty individual. I can pretend not to be, sign up for a few new accounts, and join whatever I please. So, while it's totally reasonable to want to cherry-pick who you do, and do not let in to the social circle you built, there's not a lot you can do proactively.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Nebbs - 02-24-2017
(02-23-2017, 11:18 PM)Faye Wrote:(02-21-2017, 01:47 PM)Nebbs Wrote: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" Â .. and isn't finding new members the reason a FC recruits?
To some people, an FC that screens its members as best as possible and weeds out the ones who won't mesh well is honey more than filling out an application is vinegar. Not to mention, most FC's aren't trying to get every fly in the game, only the best flies. Quality flies over quantity flies.
I would still try and flip this view from,Â
"How do we only let in the right people... be clear what we don't want and have a rigorous screening process to keep them out"
to
"How do we attract the right people.. by showing the type of FC we are so that those that will fit in apply, and those that wont don't."
For those applying the recruitment process is what they see of your FC, and I think it is better to make that a more positive representation of who you are not a negative one.
I'm not saying don't screen, I'm saying don't make recruitment only about screening people out.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Faye - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 05:00 AM)Nebbs Wrote: I would still try and flip this view from,Â
"How do we only let in the right people... be clear what we don't want and have a rigorous screening process to keep them out"
to
"How do we attract the right people.. by showing the type of FC we are so that those that will fit in apply, and those that wont don't."
For those applying the recruitment process is what they see of your FC, and I think it is better to make that a more positive representation of who you are not a negative one.
I'm not saying don't screen, I'm saying don't make recruitment only about screening people out.
And considering the viewpoint of any guild serious and concerned enough to have a stringent application, the types of people they want to attract are people who understand why the application is in place if not appreciate it, who are serious about joining this guild and willing to put time and effort into the application process. I mean, what you're saying isn't wrong, I'm just not sure why it needs said since I've never seen a guild application basically say "lol we gotta make sure you don't suck."
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Oyuu - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 05:00 AM)Nebbs Wrote:(02-23-2017, 11:18 PM)Faye Wrote:(02-21-2017, 01:47 PM)Nebbs Wrote: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" Â .. and isn't finding new members the reason a FC recruits?
To some people, an FC that screens its members as best as possible and weeds out the ones who won't mesh well is honey more than filling out an application is vinegar. Not to mention, most FC's aren't trying to get every fly in the game, only the best flies. Quality flies over quantity flies.
I would still try and flip this view from,Â
"How do we only let in the right people... be clear what we don't want and have a rigorous screening process to keep them out"
to
"How do we attract the right people.. by showing the type of FC we are so that those that will fit in apply, and those that wont don't."
For those applying the recruitment process is what they see of your FC, and I think it is better to make that a more positive representation of who you are not a negative one.
I'm not saying don't screen, I'm saying don't make recruitment only about screening people out.
I don't think people represent their FC in a negative light... o_O That would be counterproductive.Â
And to be honest, trying to attract the right people doesn't always work. Just for example, I always advertise my FC/LS as lore-adhering for the most part. Does this mean I only get roleplayers who prefer roleplaying in the realms of FFXIV lore applying? No. We still get Doomtrain-Egi summoners and the like applying, and whilst that is not a bad thing (not at all, you do you, Doomtrain summoners) but it ain't for my FC and the roleplay community we're trying to build within.Â
But I do agree, it's not about purging these people and stopping them from joining. It's about making sure they're gonna fit in and have a good time in the FC without hitting any snags in pursuing what they want for their character. My FC application just asks about their character, their RP style and preferences and if they're available to make our FC events and then we try to determine if they'll get anything out of joining us. It's not about us being too good for them, it's simply a difference in tastes and making sure we match up.Â
I remember for the five minutes I played WoW and I applied for to a guild, they had questions about lore on there! And wanted me to create my character combat sheet to submit (which was complicated as hell) and it took me over an hour to complete. I made a spelling mistake on one of the lore questions, and one of the officers pointed it out in a sarcastic manner. THAT kind of screening I feel is ridiculous and I don't blame anyone who complains about that sort of shit.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Tagyr - 02-24-2017
As someone wandering about FC-less, but have led Guilds in the past in other games, I gravitate to groups with stringent application processes. For one, it tells me that they take care in crafting a good environment for their members, and in the case of story-driven FCs, care that new players that pass the process will likely fit in and hit the ground running in their respective storyline, with much less risk of being disruptive or out of place. This is important for smaller groups.
As many others have pointed out, people play their characters very differently, with some breaking the mold a tad to create something really fun and unique, while others shape theirs to fit within the box that is the world and gain their enjoyment in that way. Both are very different and viable takes on RP, but both are often mutually exclusive from each other in my experience.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Nebbs - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 05:45 AM)Oyuu Wrote: ....
I remember for the five minutes I played WoW and I applied for to a guild, they had questions about lore on there! And wanted me to create my character combat sheet to submit (which was complicated as hell) and it took me over an hour to complete. I made a spelling mistake on one of the lore questions, and one of the officers pointed out in a sarcastic manner. THAT kind of screening I feel is ridiculous and I don't blame anyone who complains about that sort of shit.
I have had similar experiences in FFXIV. For me this is just a sign of what life in the FC will be like, if these are the officers.
Intentional or not a recruitment process is what an applicant will judge your FC on. Remember most of these FCs are trying to recruit like minded people "another one of us".
Personally I like diversity so I will never fit in with a strict group. I also love recruitment processes, it is one sign of a well run FC.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Nebbs - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 05:39 AM)Faye Wrote: ....
And considering the viewpoint of any guild serious and concerned enough to have a stringent application, the types of people they want to attract are people who understand why the application is in place if not appreciate it, who are serious about joining this guild and willing to put time and effort into the application process. I mean, what you're saying isn't wrong, I'm just not sure why it needs said since I've never seen a guild application basically say "lol we gotta make sure you don't suck."
I'm not saying don't screen I am saying do it in a positive way that reflects your FC rather than a negative one just to deter people. Though I accept one person's negative can be another's positive.
If your process reflects the way your FC is run then great! And maybe that's the point, that if an applicant does not like the process they should quit and avoid joining an FC that wont suit what they are looking for.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Zhu - 02-24-2017
I do not even consider joining guilds that does not have a strict application to fill in.
Open-for-all guilds are always filled with drama and power struggle. One that is more strict actually cares about getting rid of the toxins that some people carry with them, so to speak.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Sylentmana - 02-24-2017
I'd say the ones that really stick in my craw are those that say "go to our website to submit an applicatio." So you want me to take the time to stop playing a game to go to website? No thank you. If you can't do it in-game, I'm definitely not interested.
At the same time, people constantly spamming me with FC invites is just about the most annoying thing short of RMT shouts. I've had to block some people because the send me 3-4 invites every time I play.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Gegenji - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 10:16 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: At the same time, people constantly spamming me with FC invites is just about the most annoying thing short of RMT shouts. I've had to block some people because the send me 3-4 invites every time I play.
Gogon would get /tells asking if I wanted invites, until I put in my little message blurb that I wasn't looking for an FC on him. Haven't seen any since.
THOUGH, I do also remember a couple FCs that would just spam FC invites at me out of the blue a while back - and I kinda forget what I did to get that to stop. I think blacklisting the person doing it? It was usually the same person, so I think that sounds about right. Maybe there was an option I turned on too, but I don't recall.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Kellach Woods - 02-24-2017
I likely wouldn't be in the FC I'm in if I had to straight up apply and wasn't guaranteed a pass through from having RPed with them independently for over a year if not more.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Kilieit - 02-24-2017
(02-24-2017, 04:52 AM)Shuck Wrote: On topic:
Part of me agrees with this assessment of weirdly long applications. The problem with questions is that people lie. I'm a shitty individual. I can pretend not to be, sign up for a few new accounts, and join whatever I please. So, while it's totally reasonable to want to cherry-pick who you do, and do not let in to the social circle you built, there's not a lot you can do proactively.
All of what you said is accurate to my experience and perspective, but I wanted to emphasise this part. This is what I meant when I said it wasn't always feasible to weed people out with an application process.
In my experience, there are four rough groups of applicants:
A) Well meaning and they fit in. (The ideal recruit.)
B) Well meaning but they don't fit in.
C) Don't fit in but they have another, neutral reason to want to join (E.g. friend in the guild).
D) Malicious (E.g. wants to rob guild bank, wants to "spy for another guild" (i.e. stir shit), etc etc).
Application processes only help you distinguish between types A and B. They don't help you pick out Type C or D - that's what conduct rules are for. Because both types will lie on their apps, but it's harder to keep up a lie consistently over a number of weeks or months. Your rules should, therefore, be angled towards picking out when someone is clashing with or harming the guild culture - and making it a monitorable, quantifiable thing, that everyone knows you can be kicked for and expects people to be kicked for.
Most of our applicants were type B, and as I mentioned earlier, were weeded out during the recruitment process - mostly via inactivity during the trial period (which tells us they don't really care that much about being in the guild, and we want people who care about being here). Thing is, Mr Abusive wasn't even a type D recruit - he was type C. His girlfriend had been in the guild longer, and he wanted to join her. Given the incident he was kicked during, he lied on his application in order to do this.
(I can only think of one Type D applicant we ever had, and they were kicked within 5 minutes of their joining, lol.)
I think it's folly to try and angle your application process so it'll weed out Type C as well, because this generally involves making it so much effort that someone who isn't invested for its own sake won't complete it... but... there's a certain threshold over which even people who might otherwise fit in with your guild are going to be lost. I do think the app process should be indicative of what every day life in the guild would be like - so unless you write daily prose marathons, requiring essays seems odd. And IMO once you go over 5 single-word-answer questions, you have to start asking what Shuck suggests: what are the answers to these questions even telling you about the applicant? That they can tell you what you want to hear?
Our app had a couple of single-word questions that mostly existed so we could hold people to their answers: stuff like "have you read the rules" and "will you follow the rules" less so we knew, and more so we could point to the agreement as justification if they later went back on it and we needed to make a kick. The last question was "tell us a bit about your RP character" so we could verify that they a) at least understood the principle of being an RPer and b) their character wasn't going to be stuck in "but I can't think of a reason to come~" limbo with regards to guild RP events. Everything else in terms of membership curation was done in the trial period or with the conduct infraction system.
All in all, I didn't actually have to make that many kicks of active members during my time as guild leader. But the ones I did make were justified, improved the health of the guild as a community, and I don't regret them. I think the other members of my guild understood my reasoning as well - helped by the fact that I was transparent about it - and that's why I only ever faced challenges (read: name-calling, attempted rumour-spreading) over my kicks from people who had just been kicked.
IMO if you are transparent about what you expect from people, transparent about what constitutes a kick in advance, and transparent about when someone hits those limits - and you still encounter drama... you have a bigger problem than the immediate drama, because it means your FC members don't trust your judgement, or your leadership. That's when you open a discussion with your members about how you can do better; not when you take kicking people off the table.
JESUS CHRIST WHY DO I WRITE SO MUCH
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - ArmachiA - 02-24-2017
^ Pretty much this.
You have to make sure people are going to fit with your group. I don't think I present my group in a negative light when I say ours is not a hugbox. I LOVE that about us, I love the fact we can discuss characters and storylines with frankness and humor. However, if someone thinks that saying we aren't a hugbox is negative - they won't fit in. And it will be a really negative experience for THEM. Sure, it sounds like warning you away from the guild, but I don't want people to be miserable in a guild they dislike because they were looking for something different.
On /gkicking - I've never had an instance where someone got in and said something blatant where the decision was easy to kick them. Ever. That would probably be nice, honestly because I would kick them really fast. It's always the ones who seem pretty nice at first but eventually start letting things show where it looks like they might cause drama later, but we aren't really sure unless one of the members make a complaint. And "Drama" isn't always some insidious thing either, sometimes it's as simple as an RP disagreement or someone is feeling left out. I don't kick for just "drama" (Unless of course it's listed on our "No go" list in the rules), I watch behavior.
My officers always ask pressing questions about the Characters of the people applying and we've noticed that THAT actually weeds people out pretty well. We asked one applicant if they understood having the Echo and being a Summoner was rare - he took it as "You can't be a Summoner" and flipped the hell out. We knew that they didn't like to be questioned and they were rejected. Another applicant didn't like us asking about his power level because it was ridiculously high ("How did he get to be a master so young?" was the question, for reference), so he got uppity and got rejected.I don't want to say exactly what questions are asked, but we ask to see, mostly, how people react. Yeah you can't weed them all out (We did have someone lie on the app before) but you can TRY.
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Kage - 02-24-2017
I have to be perfectly honest. Based on my experience, I think knowing exactly what you want from an FC and communicating that is one of the most important things to have available to you in order to get the most from being in a guild.
I think applications really help with that. What do you want from the FC? What do you want to get out of the membership in said FC? What can you contribute and what should you?
If you've been on the RPC as long as I have, you have probably seen me jump from one FC... to another... to another... to another. Some of these I failed miserably to know what I wanted and whether or not I fit in. Some of that probably did not do too well because I have always completely bypassed what would be considered an FC applications process and joined by virtue of being friends with people inside the FC (IRL friends, raided once + friends inside, created the FC with IRL friends what a disaster this was, joined FC of static members, joined FC of peeps I raided with after destruction, joined the FC of peoples who were all kicked out from the destruction, joined friends who unfortunately could not be active when I was, joined friends again)
What can I contribute towards RP? What is my character like? How would I get my character involved in RP when a lot of it is more FC-plot centric? What can I do to make it work? What do I need from those in the FC to help me make this work? A few failures of my not knowing these things have led me to part from FCs in a... sometimes bitter ending. My own regrets.
... and then sometimes you just get slapped in the face by a trout by the FC lead who doesn't pay for his own sub but his wife does so when he gets caught cybering she gets him off the game but before he leaves he kicks every single person out. Destruction \o/
RE: When joining a FC becomes a job - Shofie - 02-24-2017
I have a quite a few questions on my application that aren't really so much there for the answers, but rather, how they are answered as we feel it can give you a good idea about a person.
Yeah, the application process can be kind of silly and overboard, but as it's been pointed out, this is to help make the overall guild culture a better place. People so easily weeded out can go join those huge guilds that mass invite everyone they see with no application process. I'm sure they either won't care too much that the guild is likely a toxic place, or they'll continually find new guilds and be disenchanted because they can't find a place to call home.