(04-15-2015, 11:58 AM)Flynt Knoltros Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: For my latest instigation, I wanted to bring up a topic which bothers me mildly. Not quite the promised topic about the possible whitewashing of Miqo'te tribal lore, alas. This particular topic concerns playing characters who are not the native race of the nation they hail from. 

Yes, immediately, we can cite examples of exceptional cases existing within the lore. That's fine; I'm not denying the existence of such cases. As I've said before, it's not a law of physics, so it's not impossible. Instead, rather than impossible it's just be very unlikely at most, or generally considered strange in-universe. Again, fine. The argument is from a character-building perspective; not questioning the validity but the authenticity.

Let's take the egregious, caricature example of the Miqo'te Dragoon. My immediate response is that players who construct these characters are a textbook case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They want to play a pretty cat race and a badass spearman famed within the Final Fantasy mythos. I might be wrong, hence why I'm creating this thread to begin with!

But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander. And so on. I don't believe in the argument "It makes it more interesting", because I don't believe that an exotic race or exotic occupation is needed to make your character interesting (it is your character's character which makes your character interesting!). Moreover, if being a race that defies that nation's norm is intended to make the character more interesting, why is it always Miqo'te?

While citing examples of exceptions existing in real-life history to the cited real-life analogies is fine, that doesn't change the reality of the fact that these cultures exist accordingly because of a majority demographic. Nations like Ishgard are explicitly portrayed as being Elezen-dominant, so why not play an Elezen? You can play the exception, fine, but is there a reason you did not pick the main race? That is the question I am putting forward! 

Ultimately, this doesn't really change whether or not I'm going to roleplay with someone or not, because I roleplay with everyone regardless. If someone wants to play a pretty cat and be something, then, well, go ahead! I've heard stories of people being bothered in whispers about lorebreaking by random people not even roleplaying with them, but just in the general area, and I really want to keep my name far from that sort of behavior. In the face of the above exceptions, my character will react accordingly, but otherwise? I still love all of you!

I love you too!...Even though we've never met.  So now, moving into the topic at hand! The issue here you are talking about is the rationalization of character building as it pertain to authenticity, so I will try to remain focused on that. When referencing a Miqo’te Dragoon, the implication is that it is not authentic due to the nature of Ishgard and the fact that there aren’t many Miqo’te in the areas of Coerthas that we have access to. The important part to note here however, is that they are there, and that they are likely the odd man out. Much like the Roe in Costa Del Sol who hails from Ishgard, there is an implication of racism and xenophobia within the Holy See for all those not Elezen or Midlander (which I think there are several more examples of this, but I will leave it to others to correct me if I am wrong or provide more concrete examples).
 
Now I will move into my character specifically, and at least my thought process on the matter. Flynt was initially going to be an Elezen Dragoon, and fit the more traditional image of a Dragoon. (I freely recognize this is subjective but thought it important to tying the idea of authenticity back to Miqo’te Dragoon’s) But as I read more about the lore and the theories on the culture, I imagined a feasible back story would be to have him from a smaller house, born of “good stock” and more of a noble than a common person. The character started (in my head movies) becoming this somewhat cocky, holier than thou warrior with a somewhat sociopathic streak. Then I realized I had made what would become my primary antagonist, and that got me thinking. What would it be like from the bottom instead of the top? What effect would racism and insane religious indoctrination have on a Miqo’te kid who wanted nothing more than fight a war he thought was just?
 
The authenticity stemmed from what I understand is a agreed upon understanding of Ishgardian lore and society. Now you claim that doing so is having one’s cake and eating it too, which I will not say untrue in some, if not many, cases. However, the disconnect here is that 1. A Miqo’te cannot be a Dragoon because we’ve not seen it, therefore it is not true to lore or “authentic”. 2. The primary races of a nation state should dictate (more or less) what characters a person plays, since the argument of it being more interesting holds no water for you. 3. If people wish to be interesting, why is it always Miqo’te that are used to “be interesting”.  So now I’ll try to take these two points and talk to them.
 
1.      A Miqo’te Can’t/Shouldn’t be a Dragoon because it has not been seen and is not true to lore/authentic.
From what I’ve gathered about your character in a previous thread, and how you look at the lore, you try to hold true to form and treat your character more as an NPC then PC due to the nature of the FFXIV story overall. I think the first point to address is a difference in POV. From what it sounds like (and please correct me if I’m wrong!) you view the world in a more realistic matter, with many of the fantastical things that are happening being done outside of what most of us as PCs would ever see. I don’t think this is wrong or right, it is just how you see the universe. As such, anything that deviates from the norm makes sense to rub the wrong way with you and others who view the universe as such. This is just a fundamental difference in viewpoints, and will of course change fundamentally the stories we will tell and how we will tell them. However, the idea that a Miqo’te cannot be a Dragoon due to not being authentic is not correct, and personally I do not think that is the root of issue at hand, but that is a separate point which I will get to next. This argument to me hinges on the supposition that since there are not other races in Ishgard/Coerthas other than Elezen and Hyur, which we 
know is false. So, even if it is rare, it is possible and then theauthenticity of the character is dependent upon the roleplayer creating a feasible and interesting story explaining how this happened. Will it happen a lot? Probably not. Is it something that should raise eyebrow? Of course. But I think that the issue is it being roleplayed in a believable manner, and many times it can and is being done. 
2.      The Primary Races Of A Nation State Should Dictate (More Or Less) What Characters A Person Plays, Since The Argument Of It Being More Interesting Holds No Water.
This to me is sounds very akin to the “No True Scotsman” logical fallacy. Your opinion is of course a valid one, so I want to make sure  the distinction here isn’t that you aren’t allowed to think stories cannot be made interesting by introducing different races into unconventional roles. What I mean however is that the implication here is that it isn’t interesting to any “good” or “true” roleplayer, because it deviates from what we think of as lore abiding. My simplest response to “Ishgard are explicitly portrayed as being Elezen-dominant, so why not play an Elezen?” Is that isn’t the story I wanted to tell. I know quite a few Elezen Ishgardian Dragoons, and they have great stories and love their characters, that’s awesome! But I wanted to tell a story based around religious indoctrination, racism and classism in a culture that has more than enough of all three to go around. It is something I thought out, and put a lot of time and research towards because I thought it would be really cool to share with people. I expect and actually encourage him getting looked at strange for it, that’s why he keeps it close held. It’s the same for him being married to an Elezen, I expect it to raise eyebrows and honestly earn him and her some snide comments from members of either race (though it has never actually happened XD). I play a character to be a part of a bigger story and give others something interesting to interact with, and I think Flynt is that. I hold no animosity towards people who would rather not interact with him, or even people who think he is a total liar! But, to me what makes a story interesting or compelling is how people or events deviate from the established norm of that universe.
 
3.       If People Wish to be Interesting, Why is it Always Miqo’te That Are Used to “Be Interesting”.
This… I got nothing. Honestly, I completely agree that the perpetrators of more “Over the Top” RP seem to often be Miqo’te. My rationalization for choosing a Miqo’te when 2.0 came out was the lore revolving around their leaping abilities with stronger than normal legs and tails in use for adjusting balance mid air like cats/dogs. Miqo’te are seemingly the most popular race for reasons I can only speculate. It is a valid issue I think, but I guess I just don’t like the idea of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 
Overall I think this is a really great question, especially after seeing some of your other posts on similar topics and getting a better idea (hopefully!) on how you see the FFXIV universe versus how others might. I hope you don’t take any of this in an antagonist manner, and if anything comes off as such I apologize since that is not my intent at all. I am honestly just excited to see so much discussion on Ishgard and it’s social issues since that was what drew me to making a character from there in the first place! /endrant

(04-15-2015, 12:00 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 11:56 AM)Dischord Wrote: I've always found the term 'special snowflake' to be a little pointless.  Snowflakes are inherently different, and the chances of finding two identical are very, very slim, because of the conditions required to create those snowflakes.  At the same time, people think differently, and have different ideas, so characters will be different, and what one person finds to be interesting and unique, another person might look at and groan and go 'Oh god, this idea is terrible to me.'

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Spoiled for off-topic
That's basically it: In a world of individuals, the people who need to go above and beyond to stand out are what makes them "special" snowflakes, emphasis on the first part. It's not enough to be one character in a cast of hundreds or thousands, so I'm also the incarnation of Phoenix and a descendant of Bahamut and also the true heir to the Garlean Throne.

Everyone a snowflake. The folks who pick piles of tropes to make themselves super-unique are the ones being mentioned with the term.

(04-15-2015, 12:20 PM)Aya Wrote: Why do people play unusual combinations?  Sometimes they just accidentally fall into it.  Miqo'te Dragoons are incredibly common characters to make, some of them decide to role play, and hence we have Miqo'te Dragoons!  That's a large swathe of individuals. 

What about those who set out intentionally to make something unusual?  Well, I can understand the desire to be unique, since there was a time I strove for that every time I played a pen-and-paper RPG.  I generally played something unusual and rather unique, not just in the party, but in the world itself.

When it comes to MMO's though I've never really thought that way, which I really think comes down to two main things:

1) You're not Unique.  No matter how hard you have tried to make some unusual combination, or some wild background, you're really not unique.  On one hand its not unlikely at all that someone else has already made a very similar character.  The player bases are massive, and the idea that you've stumbled upon an entirely new idea that no one else has tried, is relatively small.  Secondly, there's no GM to say "yes, you're this, and you're incredibly rare."  You're reliant upon others who on an individual level set their own canon to accept your story and set you aside as "unique", and unique in your own significant way.  In reality those you interact with who are affected in some way by your character's "unique" background, will almost certainly classify you in a very non-unique fashion.  You might believe yourself to stand out amidst the sea, while in reality you're entirely blending in with a very large and preexisting group.

2) You are Unique.  Before you ever started to try to create some very unusual and unique character idea, your character was already destined to be entirely unique upon his or her own merits.  Each are individuals, played by a unique and individual player who provides the mannerisms, and interaction in an unique manner.  Its sometimes fun to see how other people write a character of yours they know, but you can be sure that everything they grab on to in their own vision of that character, was animated and given life by yourself as the player.  My point is just that every character is unique from the very beginning.  And if you want to establish an unique identity that actually stands out, and is remembered as such, this is the only manner in which you'll actually achieve that end.


Ultimately, most of the uniqueness we're discussing boils down to back story.  I think people put far, far too much weight on backstory.  While it does provide an interesting writing exercise, and can sometimes produce interesting writing which is worthwhile on its own merits and valuable hooks for RP, it really does not contribute all that much to role play itself.  If your character is to be remembered positively it will be because of your interactions, or the way you've interacted within stories.  If someone remembers your character it will be because of what he or she did, not because she is "that Miqo'te Dragoon."  Instead it will be, "That Miqo'te Dragoon who did such and such."  The supposed uniqueness of your back story is really irrelevant to this, and in the case of some that are outright outlandish can actually provide an obstacle. 

I see such a heavy emphasis on backstory on these forums, and I think its just part and parcel of being RPers, but I think the time we invest is inordinate compared to the actual impact and import they have on actual role play. 


Lastly, just an off-hand comment, every single half-breed I've encountered has been a Hyur-Miqo'te.  Are there any others out there?

(04-15-2015, 12:23 PM)Reiner Dorn Wrote: There is a Mi'qote- Elezen running about. and I've seen a few Hyur-elezen

(04-15-2015, 12:20 PM)Aya Wrote: Lastly, just an off-hand comment, every single half-breed I've encountered has been a Hyur-Miqo'te.  Are there any others out there?

(04-15-2015, 12:28 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I  can't exactly say as the only biracial characters I know of are between clans and not races, but the 'why' is probably because it's the easiest to pull off with the current character creation system. I've had people mistake Vetiver for half-Hyur before, for instance, even though she's full-blooded Keeper.

(04-15-2015, 12:27 PM)Aya Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 12:23 PM)Reiner Dorn Wrote: There is a Mi'qote- Elezen running about. and I've seen a few Hyur-elezen

I always expected Hyur-Elezen to be more common!

(04-15-2015, 12:30 PM)Gegenji Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 12:27 PM)Aya Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 12:23 PM)Reiner Dorn Wrote: There is a Mi'qote- Elezen running about. and I've seen a few Hyur-elezen

I always expected Hyur-Elezen to be more common!

Still waiting for a Roeqo'te.

(04-15-2015, 12:30 PM)Aya Wrote: I should have known my off-hand comment would be the only thing of interest in my post :-D

I don't consider cross-clan characters to be biracial  in this sense, and they're not uncommon, or controversial in the least I don't think.

(04-15-2015, 12:30 PM)Aya Wrote:

(04-15-2015, 12:28 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I  can't exactly say as the only biracial characters I know of are between clans and not races, but the 'why' is probably because it's the easiest to pull off with the current character creation system. I've had people mistake Vetiver for half-Hyur before, for instance, even though she's full-blooded Keeper.

I should have known my off-hand comment would be the only thing of interest in my post :-D

I don't consider cross-clan characters to be biracial  in this sense, and they're not uncommon, or controversial in the least I don't think.

(04-15-2015, 12:20 PM)Aya Wrote: Lastly, just an off-hand comment, every single half-breed I've encountered has been a Hyur-Miqo'te.  Are there any others out there?