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+--- Thread: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? (/showthread.php?tid=11578)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Wymsical - 06-06-2015
I'm honestly a little surprised people seemed to have thought the new jobs were going to start at level 1 (or were hoping for it). SE's stated they didn't intend to add any new classes for the foreseeable future and all other jobs start at level 30. Having a job class that starts at level 1 would just throw the whole thing off. So at the very least, everything from now on will most likely be a Job that starts at level 30, even if they leave off the 'finishing the MSQ' part. I'm sure that's a frustration to some people but at this point it wouldn't make a lot of sense to change it.
Additionally, to everyone who doesn't want to finish the MSQ... it's really not that hard or long, I promise. I did it from Leviathan to GRAND FINALE in about two nights as a DPS at ilevel 90; albeit skipping cutscenes and teleporting everywhere. Queues (as a DPS) and cutscenes take up the vast majority of the time doing the MSQ and Steps has been nerfed so heavily that my group of almost entirely new people finished it before the explosive crates.
The concern about queues for old content is a valid one but given what has been said about adding gear and exp to the MSQ, I can't imagine they'll neglect making something to really encourage people doing the old queues. Additionally, there will always be people leveling new classes or new characters.Â
With how the combat system works, people who 'hate' all of the old classes would almost assuredly have to level them at some point eventually with cross-class skills (and those will probably never go away) being such an important part of the basic endgame meta. Also, leveling WHM has taught me more about being an effective SCH and will almost assuredly lend to playing the rather complex-sounding AST, for example. The new Jobs honestly don't sound like they're something a new player would benefit from being able to immediately pick up.
I understand that some of you really don't like the choices in the gameplay, but saying that it's inherently bad design and/or completely unfriendly to all new players is a bit much. Progression is a huge part of XIV and these three new Jobs are pretty clearly meant to be a sort of reward.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 04:45 PM)Wymsical Wrote: The new Jobs honestly don't sound like they're something a new player would benefit from being able to immediately pick up.
I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."
By the way, very few if any have suggested the new jobs start at level 1, so the first chunk of your post is largely irrelevant. What people do want is to be able to access those jobs at level 30 without first having to go through 50 levels on a completely different class, finish the MSQ, and do whatever else you need to do to get to Ishgard.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Gone. - 06-06-2015
I have no problem with having people hit level 30 before playing AST, MCN and DRK. They are, after all, classified as jobs.
What I do take issue with is locking them behind weeks worth of questing when there's just no legitimate reason to in the first place. Play style can make or break a player's interest in a game; the more options available early on, the better.
Also I don't think anyone has a problem with completing the MSQ the one time to continue the overarching plot. It's doing it on alts where it becomes problematic and frankly unnecessary.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Wymsical - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 04:53 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."
That level of condescension actually wasn't what I had in mind. One of the major criticisms I've seen of XIV across most reviews or articles about it is that the game does very little hand-holding when it could stand to do more. It's no secret that a large amount of players don't really know even the basic meta of their class (examples: pets on Obey instead of Sic, WHM using Regen a lot more) and it's often considered a failing of the game. The feel I've gotten from the info on the new Jobs is that they do have some mechanics that would be difficult to understand if you're not very acquainted with the game.Â
Imagine being a new player, you grab AST and suddenly all of your old skills are gone with a brand new lineup encompassing everything from 1-30, coupled with the RNG card mechanic and whatever else they have. You essentially have to relearn your entire Job right then at a level when the game is starting to ramp up its difficulty. It might not sound hard to someone who's been playing the game for a while (thus the emphasis on new players) but I've helped people brand new to the game before and they were often fairly overwhelmed with how complex XIV can be.
(06-06-2015, 04:53 PM)Naunet Wrote: By the way, very few if any have suggested the new jobs start at level 1, so the first chunk of your post is largely irrelevant. What people do want is to be able to access those jobs at level 30 without first having to go through 50 levels on a completely different class, finish the MSQ, and do whatever else you need to do to get to Ishgard.
I've actually seen a good few returning players complaining about them not starting at level 1 since the announcement, thus the comment.
(06-06-2015, 05:04 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Also I don't think anyone has a problem with completing the MSQ the one time to continue the overarching plot. It's doing it on alts where it becomes problematic and frankly unnecessary.
I'll agree that this game is very unfriendly to alts (I don't play them usually, so I forget about that). An account-wide 'MSQ done' thing wouldn't be a bad idea.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - BroodingFicus - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 04:45 PM)Wymsical Wrote: I'm honestly a little surprised people seemed to have thought the new jobs were going to start at level 1 (or were hoping for it). SE's stated they didn't intend to add any new classes for the foreseeable future and all other jobs start at level 30. Having a job class that starts at level 1 would just throw the whole thing off. So at the very least, everything from now on will most likely be a Job that starts at level 30, even if they leave off the 'finishing the MSQ' part. I'm sure that's a frustration to some people but at this point it wouldn't make a lot of sense to change it.
As was mentioned I don't think anyone did. Up until a few weeks ago I thought you had to be level 30 of an existing class to start it which I was more than ok with. I leveled a conjurer with a ridiculous name and became a white mage at 30 and then sat there with my fantasia waiting to turn him into an Au Ra and go pick up my AST job quest. It was only later, after purchasing HW, that they clarified it and everyone sorta realized the MSQ was a gate. No other job requires you to do the /entire/ MSQ. Sylph Management, a level 20 quest I think, is the doorway quest to being able to get the job quest line started. As long as you were 30 on your class and 15 on your cross class, you could go get it at that point. So continuing this tradition would actually not have altered anything at all since it is what they have been doing from the start. Which is why so many thought this is how it would be. More or less the new Jobs are just that. Jobs with no base class. It stands to reason they should start at 30, which they do...you just can't touch them because they locked the quest givers away.Â
The only logical reason is because they are trying to keep the story cohesive but even that is flimsy. Au Ra change that, as has already been said. On top of that most of the jobs we can get already were not given to us by a 'guild'. We were special snowflakes who learned the trade from wanderers and passersby on almost all occasions that I can think of. They essentially made three new jobs but gave them guilds like classes, but kept a job like level requirement and then locked them behind the MSQ. Its all very strange.Â
As to this set up helping anyone learn their role? It won't. People will rush through because they are not enjoying themselves. There is also no restriction that says you have to be a class of the same role. I could level a bard and then switch to AST if I wanted too. Is it smart? No. Will people do it? Yes. FFXIV is actually pretty good in my mind, at teaching you your role the way things are. It ramps up slowly if you follow the MSQ which is why it doesn't make sense for you to do it as a different class than the one you want end game. I'm not saying it is a poor design choice. I am saying it is pointless and is only causing frustration.Â
..also please yes. Account wide MSQ would solve so many issues because this story line is only going to take longer and longer as FFXIV continues, which I hope it does for many years to come. It also would have solved the MSQ issue for the new jobs, at least for veteran players who have kept up with the story. New players/returning ones not so much but it would have been as step in the right direction that didn't hurt anyone else.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 05:11 PM)Wymsical Wrote:(06-06-2015, 04:53 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'll make the decision about what is too complicated for me to handle, thanks. I don't need a game hand-holding me all "Oh but sweetie, that's too much for you right now."
That level of condescension actually wasn't what I had in mind. One of the major criticisms I've seen of XIV across most reviews or articles about it is that the game does very little hand-holding when it could stand to do more. It's no secret that a large amount of players don't really know even the basic meta of their class (examples: pets on Obey instead of Sic, WHM using Regen a lot more) and it's often considered a failing of the game. The feel I've gotten from the info on the new Jobs is that they do have some mechanics that would be difficult to understand if you're not very acquainted with the game.Â
Imagine being a new player, you grab AST and suddenly all of your old skills are gone with a brand new lineup encompassing everything from 1-30, coupled with the RNG card mechanic and whatever else they have. You essentially have to relearn your entire Job right then at a level when the game is starting to ramp up its difficulty. It might not sound hard to someone who's been playing the game for a while (thus the emphasis on new players) but I've helped people brand new to the game before and they were often fairly overwhelmed with how complex XIV can be.
Wait, people actually have argued that FFXIV doesn't do enough hand-holding? The game that babies you 1-50 with fights you can do in your sleep? xD (There's no ramp up in difficulty at all while leveling...)
I mean, learning a new class is learning a new class. It's no different from one MMO to the next, and I can pretty much guarantee that learning AST isn't really going to be any different than picking up any other job. Yeah, you get new abilities - same thing that happens if you start playing a new class in this or any other MMO. And people handled death knights just fine in WoW (it helped that your abilities were handed out to you gradually over the course of 4 levels), so... I really don't think players need to be protected from the ~*complexity*~ of AST (or the other new Heavensward jobs). I know you didn't really intend it on such a condescending level, but that's essentially what that kind of defense is doing.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-06-2015
Making fights sleepwalk easy isn't the same as explaining how to do things. I'll divert you to the OF and heaps of pages about how much Steps of Faith needed to be nerfed as a point.
Edit: Or Titan HM.
Preemptive edit: Or Twisters.
Preemptive edit: Or <thing I can't do because it's too hard>.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-06-2015
It doesn't help that abilities that should be baseline for a class (E.G. A single target taunt for tanks) are locked behind a specific class and fuck you if you never wanted to play that class in the first place.
In terms of classes I'd say that's where the game does zero handholding. Too many skills are considered baseline and yet require you to play something you may not have wanted to play in the first place. It's such a problem that they changed how crafting'd be handled in HW because of the fact that you needed 50 on every crafting class to even be decent at crafting.
In so far as the MSQ is concerned, they're trying to fast track new players because in their own words, Heavensward is just as long as the base game, except stretched over only 10 levels. Makes sense that if this is gonna be the relevant content you don't want the new dudes lingering behind for too long.
They seem to be fixing a lot of the stuff y'all take for granted. It'll be more difficult (from interviews they're saying 1v1 of equal level should be what you seek out, two is manageable with good play, but more than that and you should expect to get wrecked), but I expect far less bullshit (a new mechanic blindsiding you, DRGs/Limit Breaks getting fucked from animation lock, etc.)
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 05:58 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Making fights sleepwalk easy isn't the same as explaining how to do things. I'll divert you to the OF and heaps of pages about how much Steps of Faith needed to be nerfed as a point.
Edit: Or Titan HM.
Preemptive edit: Or Twisters.
Preemptive edit: Or <thing I can't do because it's too hard>.
People always scream for nerfs. In every MMO. So no, challenging content (or lackthereof) isn't where the handholding is or should be.
If people are so concerned about the wash of newbies who would be oh-so-terribly confused by leveling to 30 and picking up astrologian/machinist/dark knight, I would argue that the better suggestion would be to spread out their skill acquisition a little more. Rather than make said delicate newbies play 50 levels and run outdated end game content on a class they may not want.
Though I didn't actually find Titan HM (or Twisters) that challenging. One is just memorizing a pattern; the other is literally just run in a little circle whenever you see a cast.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Warren Castille - 06-06-2015
(06-06-2015, 06:37 PM)Naunet Wrote: Though I didn't actually find Titan HM (or Twisters) that challenging. One is just memorizing a pattern; the other is literally just run in a little circle whenever you see a cast.
Solve for those who did, then. People will always cry for nerf, sure, but people will also always whine for access. See people who didn't clear T5 complaining they couldn't do T6, people who couldn't beat T9 wanting to move into T10 and people without subs wanting to be catered to, despite having not given SE money for X months.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Aduu Avagnar - 06-06-2015
If you bring up Death Knights as an example of something that was done well and people had no problems with, I am going to laugh.
Most people that played them as DPS were fine, DPS isn't a very technical job in WoW, at least to get decent numbers. However, the people that started tanking as them were terrible. Sure, they got better, but it took a while post Wrath, people were still bitching about it near the launch of Cataclysm.
Also, RE: Titan HM. The number of people who couldn't manage it for various reasons was insane. I knew people that still hadn't managed it for several months after getting 50 cause of groups, lag, or other issues. There is a reason why Free Companys such as Blacklisted were offering free runs through it.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Naunet - 06-07-2015
People bitched about DKs largely because they were a new thing to bitch about.
 Hunters needed at least a little bit of a break! I raided with many a highly skilled DK - tank and dps alike - and any player worth their salt knew enough to recognize the important tools they brought to raids.I recognize that there are going to be certain classes in any MMO that get stereotyped. I also recognize that some classes might have a steeper learning curve, while some might be easier, some middle-of-the-pack, etc. Just because a class is "challenging", though, is no reason to try and protect the poor hapless players from it. That's a sure-fire way of boring your skilled players to death and really, what good would a little newbie get leveling a completely different class up only to have to switch to astrologian/dark knight/machinist anyway? They're STILL going to have to deal with a swath of new abilities when they do make the switch.
As a side-comment, I realize that a lot of people have had trouble with things like Titan HM. To this day it still baffles me, though. I could dodge those patterns in my sleep and solo-healed the fight in half regular AF gear. >_>
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-07-2015
Dunno if you're on PS3, but I hear a lot of complaints on mechanics coming from PS3 folks. It's one of the few things this game has in common with DCUO.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Zyrusticae - 06-08-2015
(06-06-2015, 12:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:I think where you're getting confused is that I am referring to outright refusing to play a game - not even attempting to try it out - because the given classes don't appeal to you immediately as being 'narrowminded', NOT simply having a preference for one role or one class or the other.
I consider a certain amount of willingness to tread new territory and try out unfamiliar things to be a basic part of modern living, so yes, I DO consider it unhealthy when someone displays that level of stagnation.
On the other hand, if someone has actually experienced all of those things and given the game a fair shake, that's an entirely different matter. In that case, you have actual experience to fall back on, and obviously I cannot convince you that your experiences were somehow 'wrong' (like, duh). But that wasn't the scenario that was originally outlined.
In the end, I remain wholly unconvinced that the number of players who are going to be turned off of the game entirely for lack of a specific class is anything more than a tiny minority. I also believe that a number (but not all) of the people complaining about the lack simply don't like the game in general, in which case classes still don't actually fix anything because their issues are with the core gameplay loop, something that would require a radical restructuring of the game to fix.
All that being said, I am, again, in favor of some restructuring to make the game less alt-unfriendly. Shared retainers, an account-wide 'MSQ-completed' flag, and other such niceties would go a LONG way towards this. I am also not terribly opposed to the new job masters simply being located outside of Ishgard.
I'm just saying that, in the end, Squeenix likely isn't going to be feeling much hurt from this decision. They're certainly not going to hear the end of it, however. Folks sure like to make their voices heard.
RE: Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice? - Kellach Woods - 06-08-2015
I've done pettier than that.
I refuse to play Skullgirls 'cause I hate Alex Ahab's character designs.