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+--- Thread: Is having the Echo okay? (/showthread.php?tid=18448)
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RE: Is having the Echo okay? - PhantasticPanda - 02-02-2017
(02-02-2017, 01:13 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:(02-02-2017, 12:53 PM)PhantasticPanda Wrote: The Echo is rather "common". To my knowledge and interpretation, almost all Scions of the Seventh Dawn (including all those no-name NPC you see in the Waking Sands) has the Echo, because it is what gives them protection from being tempered by Primals, their primary threat they're usually sent to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if the Company of Heroes were Echo-users as well considering they faced primals without being tempered.
This bit is actually incorrect. The majority of the living Scions of the Seventh Dawn do not actually possess the Echo. Only the minor npcs who were present in the Waking Sands prior to the imperial purge in the early ARR story quest, such as Una Tayuun. These members were part of Minfilia's Path of the Twelve in 1.0, who were all Echo Walkers. When the Path merged with the Circle of Knowing (the Sharlayans under Louisoix like Yda and Y'shtola) to form the Scions, they began recruiting non-Echo adventurers. The Sharlayan members of the Circle of Knowing do not have the Echo with the exception of Krile.
Also it's been noted that Limsa's Company of Heroes were not Echo users and defeated the primals by throwing large numbers at their foes with only a few surviving each fight to tell the tale.
Ooooh. Okay, I didn't know that. *begins to reconfigure mind*
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Kilieit - 02-02-2017
On the nature of the Echo in lore -
Off the top of my head, Echo-granted powers that your character may or may not have:
• Immunity to tempering from Primals (this one is, afaik, always present for all Echo-users; all others are optional).
• Universal language comprehension and speaking - "knowing a man's mind without comprehending his words".
• ?? Ease/quickness of learning new skills, either from a mentor or from a soul crystal. (Tbh I think this one might be headcanon?? Can anyone else corroborate this one?? I run with it but I don't wanna say it's canon without backup and I don't have time to confirm right now)
• Having visions of things that happened to other people in the past - either directly from them (more common) or from aether left lingering in a location they passed through (less common).
There's also... some real funky stuff that Echo-users should theoretically be capable of, that's shown during MSQ (the part where Minfilia takes a trip out to Western La Noscea)... but since even Minfilia was unaware of these capabilities up until that moment, I think it's fair to say that regular mortal Echo-users would not be performing these skills.
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On the courtesies of having the Echo in RP -
I haven't had any problem with my characters' Echo. It's opened up some storylines with other players, given me and other players "easy ins" for our characters to start talking when they otherwise wouldn't break the ice, and generally added enjoyment to my RP with very few drawbacks.
And for the players who don't like it (they have their own reasons, which is fair, personal preferences)... then, I've never had trouble playing with them, too. Because it's not that hard for me to just not mention it, IC or OOC, while I'm playing with them. It doesn't cause me trouble to just let it drop off the radar when that's more appropriate for the scene in question.
After all - it is, from beginning to end, a plot device... so... treating it like one, and mentioning it or not mentioning it solely based on which will open more doors, isn't a bad thing. Imo the Echo adds value to my characters' stories overall, so it's worth keeping - but it's not so vital that I have to mention it in every single session.
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Also, you want to be careful with using the "visions of the past" thing on other player-characters, if you decide your character's capable of it - I utilise it very sparingly with PCs, and only after extensive OOC discussion with the other player, wherein the other player demonstrated enthusiasm and was forthcoming with potential subjects for the vision. In fact, my favourite (and, surprisingly, most common) way of having these visions arise is that the other player approaches me FIRST and is like, "hey your character has the Echo right? Does he have visions? Could he have THIS vision cause I think that would be cool and open up more avenues for development".
NEVER just take a thing from a person's History section on their wiki page - this is still meta-gaming, regardless of how much sense it would or wouldn't make ICly. Just like it's meta-gaming when someone says, without prior OOC discussion/permission, that their character just happened to be in the same place/time and therefore knew what happened - even though that utilises no special powers and requires no suspension of disbelief. It's not about how much sense it makes in-universe, it's about being courteous out-of-character, and allowing people to retain a modicum of control over their own character's storyline.
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TL;DR: If you do your research on its lore-stated properties*, think about what influence you want it to have on your character, exercise discretion in mentioning it during RP, and stick to the normal rules on metagaming - just like you would with any other ICly stigmatised trait/ability - I think you're all good.
*Especially on what is "The Echo" and what is "Hydaelyn's Blessing", because they seem to be different. An Echo-user does not a Crystal of Light-wielder make, and a lot of the Warrior of Light's really inconceivable abilities seem to come from the latter, not the former. As others have mentioned, look to NPCs like Krile and the Path of the Twelve for more info on what the regular ole Echo does - the Warrior of Light is a special case even among them.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Ciel - 02-02-2017
There is nothing wrong with having the Echo, or any of the abilities which come with it. A few pieces of advice, though:
1. Play the character first, not the ability.
2. Unless the character doesn't have a whole lot of common sense, don't ICly have them go around advertising or shouting from the rooftops that they have it. There are still those who may view an Echo user as being unnatural and no better than any of the beast tribes simply because they don't understand what it's about.
3. Use it sparingly. If you're going to use it to peer into a character's past, shoot them a /tell and make sure it's ok to do so first.
4. You can have the Echo but you don't have to have the whole gamut of possible perks which come with it. For mine, I stick with languages. As a character who spent a great deal of time wandering before, and after returning from, the Calamity, she attributes her grasp for languages to her experiences on the road. Peering into the past is something saved for rare plotted events if the person running them is willing to allow it. It helps to have it as an ace up your sleeve if you're in a jam where you can't otherwise figure out how to proceed.
5. It never hurts to touch base with other Echo users for RP, and maybe establish a "comfort zone" of sorts where you can all relax and not have to worry about being persecuted.
6. Not everyone is going to OOCly like it, either, but that's ok. Most won't give you grief for it, but some FCs have policies against accepting Echo users due to either being "OP" or "too common" or some other reason. Don't take it personally if that happens, there are other opportunities waiting which are more welcoming.
7. Most important of all, have fun with it!
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Warren Castille - 02-02-2017
(02-02-2017, 10:22 AM)Riggy Wrote: That said, I'm not so much looking to have it for meta-gaming and knowing someone's backstory, but more just to avoid Tempering and workaround the possible language barriers we never really see in game (because of the Echo).
You're doing it fine.
Use it as a plot device, not a weapon. If people you meet are amenable to you finding out about their pasts with the Echo, go for it! Having it on stand-by is A-OK for most people.
Language is pretty weird in Eorzea, as an aside. That's something that was also seemingly retconned from 1.x: Beast tribes didn't speak common and the Echo was required to talk to any of them. That's been quietly rubbed out in ARR. I was legitimately surprised to see them invoke that with Krile since prior to that, the only instance of not speaking the language is with Moenbryda not knowing what an ascian is saying.
It's unlikely you'll need to invoke that aspect of it very often unless you're running into a lot of Au Ra [talking in brackets] <and symbols>.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Nebbs - 02-03-2017
I'm loving the balanced views here, and have picked up quite a bit on the nuances of the echo in the game. So much so I'm probably going to use that as the reason behind some of my character's quirks.Â
She has had them some years now but I never explained how, and left it open ended so they could be equally real or her just being a bit delusional.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Mia Moui - 02-03-2017
I feel that Mia must possess something like the Echo. Â She's claimed to be good with languages but is not an educated person by any stretch. Â And she often boasts to those she's about to dispatch that despite their protestations, "she can see into their hearts and knows their truth."
But I don't think she's consciously aware that she's doing anything associated with the supernatural.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Andromeda - 02-10-2017
From a lore perspective, yes. You absolutely can have the Echo. The Path of the Twelve in 1.0 - the precursor to the modern Scions - was made up of near-exclusively people who used the Echo, and I recently was reminded of someone commenting that there were thousands of Path linkpearls in circulation. That puts the odds of just being in the Path of the Twelve about on par with living in a particular ward of the Goblet. Already not a super small pool, but add to that the Path was only made up of people who were identified as having the Echo - therefore possessing some strength with the ability - and those who elected to join a weird cult.Â
As for how it goes in RP, one of my characters possesses a limited form of the Echo. Generally speaking, it's only used to translate things and as a plot device only when the person GMing a storyline demands. Much like the actual story, I play it as something that's uncontrolled and only invoked to move a plot along by that plot's writer. I also have decided that, though not really grounded in lore, I would add some side-effects of her (quite rare) Echo visions - she goes into convulsions most of the time, sometimes she'll move around like she's sleepwalking, she gets terrible nightmares and often intense physical pain. I basically took the WoL's headaches and thought "Well, they're the freakin' Warrior of Light, what would happen to a poor random researcher if one of these hit her?"Â
Also, for Echo visions, consider the general portrayal of visions in fiction - it's quite common that those snapshots will lead the person viewing them to the wrong conclusion. This isn't played around much with in Echo visions nowadays, but a lot of visions in fiction will be a snapshot from which the person seeing it will draw the wrong conclusion.
I've had some RP groups hint to me that regardless of how well it's done, they would never RP with this character, but more than that have told me that the way it's handled and balanced is well enough that they would with her despite general discomfort with the idea. So, like most things you can do as an RPer, the Echo being more broadly acceptable is mostly in how you use it.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Kallera - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 08:38 PM)Andromeda Wrote: .....
As for how it goes in RP, one of my characters possesses a limited form of the Echo. Generally speaking, it's only used to translate things and as a plot device only when the person GMing a storyline demands. Much like the actual story, I play it as something that's uncontrolled and only invoked to move a plot along by that plot's writer. I also have decided that, though not really grounded in lore, I would add some side-effects of her (quite rare) Echo visions - she goes into convulsions most of the time, sometimes she'll move around like she's sleepwalking, she gets terrible nightmares and often intense physical pain. I basically took the WoL's headaches and thought "Well, they're the freakin' Warrior of Light, what would happen to a poor random researcher if one of these hit her?"Â
Also, for Echo visions, consider the general portrayal of visions in fiction - it's quite common that those snapshots will lead the person viewing them to the wrong conclusion. This isn't played around much with in Echo visions nowadays, but a lot of visions in fiction will be a snapshot from which the person seeing it will draw the wrong conclusion.
That sounds like a thing I'd be comfortable in using. It hasn't come up for my character but I figure itll be a matter of time before it does.
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - Nodem - 02-11-2017
(02-02-2017, 08:28 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(02-02-2017, 10:22 AM)Riggy Wrote: That said, I'm not so much looking to have it for meta-gaming and knowing someone's backstory, but more just to avoid Tempering and workaround the possible language barriers we never really see in game (because of the Echo).It's unlikely you'll need to invoke that aspect of it very often unless you're running into a lot of Au Ra [talking in brackets] <and symbols>.
You forgot the Ishgardians speaking in French. (Or haven't seen them.)
That aside for a moment... Even the understanding of languages is different between Echo users. Krile can be quoted as saying they only get the 'gist' of something while you, as WoL, understand the full sentence in it's entirety.
Krile Wrote:The one with the shield seemed to think we were Allagans. He recited what sounded like a verse of prophecy, then claimed that their “Goddess is awokenâ€... Is that about right, X'sylvia?
But a moment later they can quote the entire 'prophecy' word for word. This cutscene also shows us that Y'shtola and Urianger DO NOT poss the echo.
Y'shtola Wrote:'Tis well that you are here, X'sylvia. I should like to know what our assailants were saying. You understood their words, did you not?
Urianger Wrote:'Twas a Meracydian dialect, if mine ears do not deceive─though one which beareth scant resemblance to any spoken in recent times. As for our antagonists' meaning...I do gladly defer to those blessed with the Echo.
Another example of Krile's echo can be found in the cutscene leading up to finding Thancred once more.
Krile Wrote:No two manifestations of the Echo are alike. I, for example, can converse with beings of every shape and size─excepting beasts, contrary to what others would have you believe. Language has nothing to do with it, of course; rather, I am sensitive to the whispers of the soul. Their intent, their very essence even─the traces of which served to guide the elementals to Y'shtola.
So understanding languages, go for it, as it's a base of the echo. How you do so is your choice, including understanding those Asian Au Ra, French Ishgardians, etc. I believe it was posted already, but when you have the echo the power works in REVERSE as well, and people can understand you as if you spoke their native tongue. This explains how the WoL converses so easily with beast tribes, etc.
As for the point of beast tribes speaking with people not the WoL. It's be a horrible assumption to think that beast tribes couldn't learn the spoken 'common tongue' in order to barter and trade with people.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
ECHO POWER!
So, for the 'flash back' part of the echo, if you choose to use this... The best option to do is tell your frequent RP partners you have the 'echo' and that if they ever want to give you insight to something in the past, to do so. This can lead to some interesting RP's as you're handed something tied to the person's past and just black out, seeing a fraction of their history.
Even as Krile explains, her power wasn't tied to seeing the past. So coming up with something ODD could work as well. Though it's best to keep your echo powers quiet IC, as some do frown upon them in Lore, IC, and OOC.
Krile Wrote:Farfetched though it may sound, I believe that with your Crystal Eye, I may be able to pick up where they left off and follow the remaining trail to Thancred. That is, if I have your permission...?
From my OWN Headcannon: X'sylvia possesses the echo and does get the gist of what most people are saying. She doesn't know that's how she understands, it just is there and she assumes she's just accurately able to read body language and tones of the voice. Besides the obvious protection from tempering echo power, her echo grants her what I call 'Lucky cat.' Instead of seeing fragments of the past through a vision, she's able to find fragments of the past. From a random dead body, a pocket compass, to various other things from the past. To do this: I gave her a percentage to find something from the past and it's a /random roll. Why random? Because we have evidence the echo doesn't work 100% of the time, and can't be controlled, at least by the WoL. (YET) So it has it's own random roll system that I use, with variables added in based on location, people with her, etc. Then it has a second roll to determine WHAT is found. This is from common items like gil, to allagan technology/weaponary.
Hope this all helps!
RE: Is having the Echo okay? - shdwsng - 02-13-2017
IMHO, the way things are going these days having some form of the Echo is quite common. At the very least, the "I cannot be tempered" kind of Echo. Because otherwise the fact that the beast tribes are summoning primals left and right and getting them smacked back down likewise left and right kind of stretches belief. Like everything else, it's a tool in the story-teller's arsenal. Whether you have it or not isn't OP, it's what you do with it.