(04-17-2015, 02:38 PM)Ryoko Wrote: But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Nobles in Ishgard are likely most or all Elezen. The four High Nobles Houses are made up of 3 Wildwood families and 1 Dudkwight. Per lore, the 4 High Noble Houses came to be because they were the friends of Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, and the man who defeated Nidhogg.

Other, lesser Noble Houses exist, but all of the few we've seen so far have been Elezen. Why no Hyur? Because Hyur did not integrate into Ishgardian society until roughly 450-500 years ago.

Remember Hyur came to Eorzea in three great migratory waves starting 1000 years ago. These first settlers were the Highlanders, who brought war to the Elezen. They conquered Gyr Abania from the Elezen and tried to conquer Belah'dia to the south. The first wave of Midlanders started showing up between 500-800 years ago. Now, while the Hyur and Elezen waged war across the rest of Eorzea, the Elezen of Gelmorra made peace with the Hyur who also wished to live in the Twelveswood.  This act would later make the founding of Gridania possible. But this was the first time Hyur and Elezen had come to peace in Eorzea.

So the peace between Ishgardian Elezen and Hyur would have come later. Its possible these new Hyuran Ishgardians could have become nobility, as the lower houses and military seem to follow a meritorious system. ALord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean. So about anything seems possible in Ishgard.

(04-17-2015, 02:37 PM)Intaki Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Lord Commander Aymeric of the Temple Knights is lowborn

This I didn't know. Do you recall where this is referenced?

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Aya Wrote: world where racism is the norm.

(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Melkire Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:35 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: ...and Lucia, his second, is full blooded Garlean.

To my knowledge and recollection, this was not implied or confirmed anywhere, merely speculated due to appearance. Did I miss a lore drop somewhere? I probably did. :<

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.

(04-17-2015, 02:34 PM)Kage Wrote:

Quote:Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?
-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Quote:Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.” Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Taken from this thread answered almost 4 years ago

Quote:Can different races crossbreed?

Answer: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Intaki Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:38 PM)Ryoko Wrote: But Aya, this entire premise rests on the idea that religious zealotry is inherently racist. But the thing of it is, Ishgard really gives 0 shits what size or color you are, or whether or not you have a tail. What we currently know of Ishgard is this: They see the world as two categories of people: Believers and Unbelievers. Anything else is a minor detail.

I don't think it's realistic to presume that Ishgard is not racist at all. Everyone's racist. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. I think it would be more feasible to argue that race as a factor is simply not AS prominent in Ishgardian society as it is in places like Gridania.

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.

You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

(04-17-2015, 02:51 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well I'm honestly not arguing against there being any racism. I play my own character as being hated for being a half-breed. 

However, the claim was made that Ishgard practices extreme and systematic racism, which is absurd.

(04-17-2015, 02:46 PM)Aya Wrote: I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide an in for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

In a sense their  religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.  But it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.  How far does this racist lens percolate down?  That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?  There's really no way to conjecture.

What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.  I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that we do know about Ishgard.  I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.

Quote:I definitely agree that Ishgard does provide an in for those who do not meet the usual requirements to earn a position in the stratified hierarchy, in the military in particular, and likely through earning favor within an existing Elezen House.

Quote:In a sense their  religious nature, and the common cause of the war against the Dravanians, will serve as a crucible in which racist tendencies are tested and broken down.  But it does not take much to infer that in a society where power is held firmly in the hands of a racial and class elite, that they view the rest of their people through a racist lens.  How far does this racist lens percolate down?  That's hard to say - does the common Elezen street vendor find more in common with his Elezen House Lords or with the Hyur down the street?  There's really no way to conjecture.

Quote:What I think is more obvious is that non-Elezen have a harder time earning their place in this society, and are met with an eye of greater judgement from Elezen officialdom.  I am not suggesting that this is strictly the case, only that it is a natural and logical inference from the things that we do know about Ishgard.  I think drawing the opposite conclusion would fly in the face of what we know.

Quote:Of course there isn't any evidence, if there were we wouldn't even be talking about this.  The whole point is that this is a game that takes place in a lore-light world and we're just trying to fill in the gaps.

(04-17-2015, 02:54 PM)Aya Wrote:

(04-17-2015, 02:51 PM)Ryoko Wrote: Well I'm honestly not arguing against there being any racism. I play my own character as being hated for being a half-breed. 

However, the claim was made that Ishgard practices extreme and systematic racism, which is absurd.

It is not absurd at all.  It is entirely reasonable given the environment of the world, and what we know about Ishgard.  It fits the rubric.  Because of the focus upon religion and the war against the Dravanians there are routes to earn positions of respect and authority within the military, but the firm grip of Elezen upon the levers of power does not seem to be threatened.