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+--- Thread: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations (/showthread.php?tid=11112)
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Yssen - 04-16-2015
A couple of things.Â
1. While the Archbishop video can be a good source, it really only proves that there are only Elezen in that chamber with the Archbishop for whatever ceremony is going on. Using it as proof that there are no miqo in it and thus no miqo in the Ishgardian military would also mean that there are no other races other than Elezen in the Ishgardian military. Which we know to be incorrect. Natalie has the right of it here. It only serves as proof that there are only Elezen in that presentation, for whatever reason.Â
2. Assuming that the Dragoons are the most prestigious thing to come out of Ishgard is quite the assumption. There is no evidence that they are more prestigious than the Temple Knights. If they were the end all be all of Ishgard's forces, why were none of them present (other than the Azure Dragoon) for the battle at the Steps of Faith? The Temple Knights were the only elite forces in that engagement. This would seem to reflect that both orders are on somewhat equal footing as far as being elite goes. If you are not going to toss out a bunch of Dragoons when a giant dagron attacks, when are you going to throw them out?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
Alright, have some links:
To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector
I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg
Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".
The quest I was remembering didn't involve dead dragoons, but moreso dumb dragons who needed some liquid courage to make a run for it: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Days_of_Brandewine_and_Behemoths
And finally as an added bonus, a quest about a dragoon that took a fall and got stuck on a cliffside ledge and needs a rope to climb up (possibly pertinent to the discussion of what caliber dragoon can do the fancy jumps, but I don't remember if the man was injured or not): http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Living_on_the_Edge
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here as usual and point out the double standard that a room full of Elezen is written off as something that only applies to that place at that time and is indicative of nothing else, yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Melkire - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Yssen Wrote: 1. While the Archbishop video can be a good source, it really only proves that there are only Elezen in that chamber with the Archbishop for whatever ceremony is going on. Using it as proof that there are no miqo in it and thus no miqo in the Ishgardian military would also mean that there are no other races other than Elezen in the Ishgardian military. Which we know to be incorrect. Natalie has the right of it here. It only serves as proof that there are only Elezen in that presentation, for whatever reason.Â
*cough*racism*cough*
EDIT: To clarify, I'm of the opinion that only Elezen were present in that scene because the Ishgardians present a very xenophobic front that implies a trend of racism among its populace. I would not be surprised to learn that only Elezen knights are permitted in the presence of the Holy See / Isghardian archbishop or pope / whatever the nomenclature for the Head of Ishgard is.
(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Yssen Wrote: 2. Assuming that the Dragoons are the most prestigious thing to come out of Ishgard is quite the assumption. There is no evidence that they are more prestigious than the Temple Knights. If they were the end all be all of Ishgard's forces, why were none of them present (other than the Azure Dragoon) for the battle at the Steps of Faith? The Temple Knights were the only elite forces in that engagement. This would seem to reflect that both orders are on somewhat equal footing as far as being elite goes. If you are not going to toss out a bunch of Dragoons when a giant dagron attacks, when are you going to throw them out?
It was very clearly and specifically mentioned that the conflict which Steps of Faith represents is but one of many happening at the same time as the dragons assault Ishgard. Where were the rest of the dragoons? Fending off those simultaneous attacks, I'd wager.
(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Intaki Wrote: Alright, have some links:
To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector
I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg
Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".
Could argue that his choice of diction is because he's twiddling his thumbs out in the middle of Coerthas instead of in Ishgard defending the homeland.
(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Intaki Wrote: The quest I was remembering didn't involve dead dragoons, but moreso dumb dragoons who needed some liquid courage to make a run for it: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Days_of_Brandewine_and_Behemoths
(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Intaki Wrote: And finally as an added bonus, a quest about a dragoon that took a fall and got stuck on a cliffside ledge and needs a rope to climb up (possibly pertinent to the discussion of what caliber dragoon can do the fancy jumps, but I don't remember if the man was injured or not): http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Living_on_the_Edge
These are bizarre oddities. I can only conclude that "dragoon" then is a general term used for a specific caliber of knights, as previously suggested, with those in drachen mail being the elite.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:45 PM)Melkire Wrote:Well at that point in time, you have to remember that Ishgard proper was still an impenetrable city-fortress of anti-dragon doom. The entire point of Steps of Faith was that the Dravanians were finally try to strike at the city itself.(04-16-2015, 04:35 PM)Intaki Wrote: Alright, have some links:
To begin, the quest involving the man looking for a promotion can be found here: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Bone_Collector
I have gone to get his flavor text after the quest is resolved which you can find here: http://i.imgur.com/4rhbAe6.jpg
Note how he describes the Temple Knights as "the pinnacle".
Could argue that his choice of diction is because he's twiddling his thumbs out in the middle of Coerthas instead of in Ishgard defending the homeland.
Coerthas is the Ishgardian homeland; it's their territory and it's where many of their citizens live (less so now, possibly, after the Calamity and Snowcloak cutting off an entire section to the west).
Your thoughts on the nature of the dragoons within the military mirror my own.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Melkire - 04-16-2015
Sorry, amend that to "city-state". My point was that he's the equivalent of a grunt who lacks the accolades and resulting prestige to chill, on call, "at home". So he gets posted to a deadbeat watchpost. [/hyperbole]
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Sin - 04-16-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:33 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Let me give a TLDR to anyone just coming into this thread:
"I'm mad because other people's characters are not as boring and unimaginative as mine"
It takes more imagination to take mundane or commonplace elements and bring them together in a fashion that makes them interesting and engaging rather than taking everything you deem cool and forcing it down a bloated character's throat until it bursts.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - K'nahli - 04-16-2015
I'm quite partial to believing that everyone in the room was an elezen solely to make it look 'better' as a more unified, congregate of elite soldiers. All of them the same, in the same armour, each with perfectly in-synch timing and precision - with no height discrepancies messing up that perfect image.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 07:51 PM)K Wrote: I'm quite partial to believing that everyone in the room was an elezen solely to make it look 'better' as a more unified, congregate of elite soldiers. All of them the same, in the same armour, each with perfectly in-synch timing and precision - with no height discrepancies messing up that perfect image.
*ding ding* winner.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Kellach Woods - 04-16-2015
Or rather :
"Hey, wanna make a miqo, elezen, hyur, roe and lalafell in that cutscene, animator man? We'd need this for lore reasons."
"FUCK NO."
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - OttoVann - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: I'm gonna play devil's advocate here as usual and point out the double standard that a room full of Elezen is written off as something that only applies to that place at that time and is indicative of nothing else, yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...
People are going to ignore this post, so I'm going to quote it because it's spot on.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
Nope
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-16-2015
Hey! Read this, nerds.
I know I've been over this before but it seems to bear repeating. In response to the "room full of Elezen" being used to categorically deny the existence of Miqo'te in Ishgardian society (and its subsequent retort of BUT THERE WAS LIKE ONE IN 1.0!!) I'll just reiterate again:
There is no substantiating lore stating that "No Miqo'te live in Ishgard".
HOWEVER
There IS substantiating lore stating that Miqo'te hate/are intolerant to/won't live in the cold. Coerthas is pretty cold. It wasn't always cold or as cold, though, so if we give it the benefit of the doubt that there were, at some point, a substantial population of Miqo'te there then it's likely they didn't stay thus making an already tiny population of Miqo'te even smaller than it was previously represented.
On to the meat and potatoes: In 1.0 there was a single npc Miqo'te in the Ishgardian forces. I unfortunately am not able to obtain a population sample size from 1.0 because 1.0 isn't around anymore. I AM able to obtain a sample size from 2.0 and onward, though. Some quick numbers from my GREAT ISHGARDIAN CENSUSÂ wherein I ride around Coerthas and count up NPC's like some nerd.
Elezen Ishgardians in Coerthas: 161
Midlander Ishgardians in Coerthas: 45
No Miqo'te, Highlander, Roegadyn, or Lalafell Ishgardians present. There is one anomalous Roegadyn in a prison cell under Whitebrim but we don't know if he's a resident or a visitor. I also didn't count Grand Company NPC's, Fate NPC's, Battle Wardens, or NPC's that were obviously not Ishgardian (based on dialogue, dress, or other factors. I did count the Chocobo Porters, though. My numbers may be off by one or two in either direction of Elezen to Midlanders, so sue me; doesn't change the overall result of the census data.
So what do these numbers tell us? Well it tells us that the population ratio in Ishgard is likely somewhere around 35% Midlander to 65% Elezen. If we round our numbers the percentages still equate to about 30% to 70% respectively. Seems reasonable, right? What bout the Miqo'te, you say? Well as I've stated before we have to account for outliers like our mystery guard from 1.0 and maybe the anomalous Roe in the prison cell (or the one in Costa if you want to split hairs). From there we simply point out that as there are no examples in our sample size we give them an automatic .5% (which is generous in the terms of a true census, when targeted populations are actually represented in the sample size as zero) and say that for every 130 Elezen and 70 Midlanders, you might see -maybe one- Miqo'te, Roe, Lalafell, -OR- (not and) Highlander. I.e. 200 majority to 1 minority.
Is this me planting a flag and saying "THIS IS FACT YOU HAVE TO OBEY THIS!", Nah, not really. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to rp things properly, after all ;-P What this does do, however, is give people a baseline of population density based on a reasonable sample size presented in the game as we know it now. So you can take that and run with it however you wish.
tl;dr nope read it you lazy dweebs.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Warren Castille - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:36 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I know I've been over this before but it seems to bear repeating. In response to the "room full of Elezen" being used to categorically deny the existence of Miqo'te in Ishgardian society (and its subsequent retort of BUT THERE WAS LIKE ONE IN 1.0!!) I'll just reiterate again:
There is no substantiating lore stating that "No Miqo'te live in Ishgard".
HOWEVER
There IS substantiating lore stating that Miqo'te hate/are intolerant to/won't live in the cold. Coerthas is pretty cold. It wasn't always cold or as cold, though, so if we give it the benefit of the doubt that there were, at some point, a substantial population of Miqo'te there then it's likely they didn't stay thus making an already tiny population of Miqo'te even smaller than it was previously represented.
On to the meat and potatoes: In 1.0 there was a single npc Miqo'te in the Ishgardian forces. I unfortunately am not able to obtain a population sample size from 1.0 because 1.0 isn't around anymore. I AM able to obtain a sample size from 2.0 and onward, though. Some quick numbers from my GREAT ISHGARDIAN CENSUSÂ wherein I ride around Coerthas and count up NPC's like some nerd.
Elezen Ishgardians in Coerthas: 161
Midlander Ishgardians in Coerthas: 45
No Miqo'te, Highlander, Roegadyn, or Lalafell Ishgardians present. There is one anomalous Roegadyn in a prison cell under Whitebrim but we don't know if he's a resident or a visitor. I also didn't count Grand Company NPC's, Fate NPC's, Battle Wardens, or NPC's that were obviously not Ishgardian (based on dialogue, dress, or other factors. I did count the Chocobo Porters, though. My numbers may be off by one or two in either direction of Elezen to Midlanders, so sue me; doesn't change the overall result of the census data.
So what do these numbers tell us? Well it tells us that the population ratio in Ishgard is likely somewhere around 35% Midlander to 65% Elezen. If we round our numbers the percentages still equate to about 30% to 70% respectively. Seems reasonable, right? What bout the Miqo'te, you say? Well as I've stated before we have to account for outliers like our mystery guard from 1.0 and maybe the anomalous Roe in the prison cell (or the one in Costa if you want to split hairs). From there we simply point out that as there are no examples in our sample size we give them an automatic .5% (which is generous in the terms of a true census, when targeted populations are actually represented in the sample size as zero) and say that for every 130 Elezen and 70 Midlanders, you might see -maybe one- Miqo'te, Roe, Lalafell, -OR- (not and) Highlander. I.e. 200 majority to 1 minority.
Is this me planting a flag and saying "THIS IS FACT YOU HAVE TO OBEY THIS!", Nah, not really. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to rp things properly, after all ;-P What this does do, however, is give people a baseline of population density based on a reasonable sample size presented in the game as we know it now. So you can take that and run with it however you wish.
tl;dr nope read it you lazy dweebs.
It's a good point, but it'll just get handwaved away as "Well it's not conclusive, they just left them elezen and hyur for programming reasons."
Edit: And it ISN'T conclusive, because we don't know what's inside the city still.