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+--- Thread: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations (/showthread.php?tid=11112)
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:32 PM)Tiergan Wrote: (though weirdly, most of that aggression comes from male players who hate my mancat, but are totally willing to hit on my ladycat :V)
Hahaha the terrible truth of it, though. I've had so many guys act disappointed or disgusted at my fondness for catboys or ask "Why is Faye with a Miqo'te??" then turn around and gush over my female Miqo'te alts and beg to RP with them after they discover their existence... I won't lie, I've had more unpleasant experiences with Miqo'te RPers than any other race, but I'd say that's largely due to the fact there are more Miqo'te RPers than other races. While I like to poke some good-natured fun at the catpeople (and it's likely worth mentioning I have four of my own so I hope no one takes it too seriously) I don't understand the actual hate.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:27 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: Believable as in something that could plausibly occur.A sensible enough definition.
Quote: If I said my character was a lancer with two extra arms he'd grown with black magic and used them to fly by flapping them really hard, that's not believable.Agreed.
Quote:A Miqo'te dragoon is not very believable.From an in-universe perspective? Certainly it isn't. But from a meta perspective? Ishgard has existed for 1000 years on a continent with no particularly strict travel laws and regulations.
What's more unbelievable: a Miqo'te dragoon (in a society where simply killing a big enough dragon=promotion), or a one thousand year old nation maintaining absolute ethnic purity without the extraordinarily strict border and immigration control measures that would be necessary to do so? Keeping in mind that this is very likely a nation with a Garlean sitting near the top of one of its most esteemed martial orders.
Quote:I assumed that would be the end of it, but then again that's probably naive of me considering how much easier it is to just take an expression of distaste towards any kind of concept that matches a character you play as a malicious personal attack.I haven't taken anything here as a personal attack, but when people make incorrect or broad sweeping statements they should expect to be corrected.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-15-2015
So now that I've swept past the little field of passive-aggressive caltrops I might finally want to drop in a personal anecdote; take it as that and nothing more if you even read this post at all.
When durping about in RP, doing my thing and bein' awesome etc, I may encounter one of these fabled "Irregular race/nationality combos". My character, being a staunch Ishgardian man, a devout Halonist, and a (former) knight of Ishgard, has a fairly good idea of what its people are like and the demographics of the nation that he as a citizen had been able to observe whilst growing up etc. Now let's say he sees the 'Unicorn', which we all know is really the main thrust of this whole thread, anyway, being the Ishgardian Miqo'te (Dragoon for bonus points). Odds are he will react like most people in that society would react when confronted with something very far out of the norm. It's like watching someone get on the subway buck naked and acting like no one should be even mildly jostled by the display.Â
Playful simile aside, will I whisper you and say something like "OH EM GEE wut r u dewin' catman jones? U kant du dat! *spergs a bunch of nonsensical lore bullshit into their whisper box until they log off or ignore me*" No, that would be stupid and immature. Will I instead ignore this person outright like they aren't even there because they are just so -ridiculous- that it beggars belief? No, because that would also be stupid and immature.
So what would I do and have done, then? Act like my character would act: curious, confused, perhaps even a bit put off by the strangeness of it. Perhaps make a comment or three or even converse with them directly in an attempt to understand the phenomenon and gain an understanding of it. Of course if any/all of these things is lacking then, well, the person isn't really breaking any laws by simply being a cat person with a spear in Ishgard, sure they're friggin' weird but oh well, the world is full of weird stuff. They want to fight and die for Ishgard then so be it!
This example of course precludes things like verbally shouting heresies and trying to attack people etc etc. Simply 'existing' isn't a crime as far as I know, unless you're dragon scum then of course you can go get jumped on, nerd.
Take that how you want, if you even read it at all. But really, judging stuff out the gate does no one any favors and really, as much as you may try to paint with wide brushes in an attempt to put yourself on a pedestal just remember that it only makes you and your failings all that more visible.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:33 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Unfortunately, IRL does play into this, especially if you pay attention to OP's examples that allude to real life. This is the same kind of logic that would say you can't cosplay as a black Link or be a black samurai. This is the same kind of logic that supposes that medieval fantasy universes should have sexism in their worlds because it "makes more sense." OP may not be able to realize it, but when you are saying that certain races should be certain things because it would be too "extraordinary" it does imply something.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison at all. These aren't real people we're stopping from doing real things. This is a fake game where we choose our fake race and do fake things, especially when it comes to role-play. Why should a fantasy setting not have real world problems? If handled the right way, it can actually bring light to social issues rather than shoving them under the rug and pretending they don't exist.
Yes, it does imply something. It implies that there is racism in game. In game. In character. As is more or less a motto for RPers taking heed not to blur the lines, "IC problems are IC and should be dealt with IC."
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Meena - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:18 PM)Mamushi Wrote:Naoki Yoshida has confirmed that Doma's culture and settlement are based off of Japan(04-15-2015, 05:06 PM)Meena Wrote: Well, we know that Doma is a SMALL island nation.Doma is not an island nation and we do not know how large it is. All that was said is that it was a a coastal nation on the continent of Othard.
According to wiki and such. I just thought that meant it was an island state. I was sure I read somewhere it was island-like.
Edit: Cant find a post that states it is or isnt part of a continent or if it is part of an island group like Limsa but to the east.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Chris Ganale - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:50 PM)Kayllen Wrote: When durping about in RP, doing my thing and bein' awesome etc, I may encounter one of these fabled "Irregular race/nationality combos". My character, being a staunch Ishgardian man, a devout Halonist, and a (former) knight of Ishgard, has a fairly good idea of what its people are like and the demographics of the nation that he as a citizen had been able to observe whilst growing up etc. Now let's say he sees the 'Unicorn', which we all know is really the main thrust of this whole thread, anyway, being the Ishgardian Miqo'te (Dragoon for bonus points). Odds are he will react like most people in that society would react when confronted with something very far out of the norm. It's like watching someone get on the subway buck naked and acting like no one should be even mildly jostled by the display.Â
...
Act like my character would act: curious, confused, perhaps even a bit put off by the strangeness of it. Perhaps make a comment or three or even converse with them directly in an attempt to understand the phenomenon and gain an understanding of it. Of course if any/all of these things is lacking then, well, the person isn't really breaking any laws by simply being a cat person with a spear in Ishgard, sure they're friggin' weird but oh well, the world is full of weird stuff. They want to fight and die for Ishgard then so be it!
As an aside, if Tahz was wearing his fake!goon gear and was seen in Coerthas by anyone in any official capacity, he'd be making dust trails in the opposite direction.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Alothia - 04-15-2015
Look, guys, stop with the posting of single pictures for no reason.
I'm pruning those posts out of the thread as they don't contribute to the discussion.
/adminhat
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 07:03 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote:(04-15-2015, 06:50 PM)Kayllen Wrote: When durping about in RP, doing my thing and bein' awesome etc, I may encounter one of these fabled "Irregular race/nationality combos". My character, being a staunch Ishgardian man, a devout Halonist, and a (former) knight of Ishgard, has a fairly good idea of what its people are like and the demographics of the nation that he as a citizen had been able to observe whilst growing up etc. Now let's say he sees the 'Unicorn', which we all know is really the main thrust of this whole thread, anyway, being the Ishgardian Miqo'te (Dragoon for bonus points). Odds are he will react like most people in that society would react when confronted with something very far out of the norm. It's like watching someone get on the subway buck naked and acting like no one should be even mildly jostled by the display.Â
...
Act like my character would act: curious, confused, perhaps even a bit put off by the strangeness of it. Perhaps make a comment or three or even converse with them directly in an attempt to understand the phenomenon and gain an understanding of it. Of course if any/all of these things is lacking then, well, the person isn't really breaking any laws by simply being a cat person with a spear in Ishgard, sure they're friggin' weird but oh well, the world is full of weird stuff. They want to fight and die for Ishgard then so be it!
As an aside, if Tahz was wearing his fake!goon gear and was seen in Coerthas by anyone in any official capacity, he'd be making dust trails in the opposite direction.
Ass and elbows m8
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Qhora Bajihri - 04-15-2015
I played an Elezen in the 1.0 beta before I decided it was a waste of my time. I played pretty much this character in the first ARR beta, a Roegadame in the second beta, and then at launch played a Midlander Ala Mhigan. Not sure why I'm babbling all this, except to say I like lots of things and I like playing lots of different things.
After ditching the hyur for reasons, I went back to my first ARR beta character and mangled her backstory. I like to play characters that have a normal/normal-ish/normal appearing background, and then wreck it with all sorts of little details and incidents that make them very much a snowflake under a bread-and-butter facade.
I have no problem whatsoever with miqo'te dragoons, especially if said people are willing to and do consider how it must have felt being a minority in a place known for its xenophobia.
I was often praised in WoW for playing a blood elf mage, because blood elves should be mages, blah blah blah. Okay? He was pretty bread-and-butter on the surface, yep. But under that, he had all sorts of weird little tweaks that made him very much a snowflake, raised in a church, killed his best friend, etc. I actually felt a bit uncomfortable for being "noticed" for playing a "normal" character. As has been stated earlier
(04-15-2015, 05:03 PM)Ette Wrote: Who cares?
I like playing the "normal" not at all normally. That being said, I have utmost respect for those who play the "abnormal" and own it, and love it, and respect it, and build on it. Even if at first I ask, like many might, "a miqo'te from where?!"
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Chris Ganale - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 07:13 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Ass and elbows m8
Word.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Swashbuckler - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:55 PM)Meena Wrote:If you are referring to this wiki, then yes. That was the only thing confirmed. Though I'm sure most of us assumed this already.(04-15-2015, 06:18 PM)Mamushi Wrote:Naoki Yoshida has confirmed that Doma's culture and settlement are based off of Japan(04-15-2015, 05:06 PM)Meena Wrote: Well, we know that Doma is a SMALL island nation.Doma is not an island nation and we do not know how large it is. All that was said is that it was a a coastal nation on the continent of Othard.
According to wiki and such. I just thought that meant it was an island state. I was sure I read somewhere it was island-like.
Edit: Cant find a post that states it is or isnt part of a continent or if it is part of an island group like Limsa but to the east.
But there has been nothing with regards to the size of Doma or if it is even an island nation.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Flickering Ember - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:51 PM)Faye Wrote:(04-15-2015, 06:33 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Unfortunately, IRL does play into this, especially if you pay attention to OP's examples that allude to real life. This is the same kind of logic that would say you can't cosplay as a black Link or be a black samurai. This is the same kind of logic that supposes that medieval fantasy universes should have sexism in their worlds because it "makes more sense." OP may not be able to realize it, but when you are saying that certain races should be certain things because it would be too "extraordinary" it does imply something.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison at all. These aren't real people we're stopping from doing real things. This is a fake game where we choose our fake race and do fake things, especially when it comes to role-play. Why should a fantasy setting not have real world problems? If handled the right way, it can actually bring light to social issues rather than shoving them under the rug and pretending they don't exist.
Yes, it does imply something. It implies that there is racism in game. In game. In character. As is more or less a motto for RPers taking heed not to blur the lines, "IC problems are IC and should be dealt with IC."
I don't have a problem with racism or sexism in role-play. I feel like earlier posters brushed on this topic much better than I did. I am not referring to how IC characters perceive other characters. I am speaking entirely meta here. I wish I could word it better. To me, saying that people should only role-play what is considered "normal" for that race is troubling. How do you establish what is normal? You can't really, because even considering things like culture, people are just people. When you try to generalize and fit everyone in neat little boxes, it's a souring experience even in role-play. Not on an IC level but on a meta level. When I played WoW, the community I was in was very insistent on playing the races according to the stereotype. If you wanted to play a bloodthirsty tauren or a flower-picking orc you would get a lot of flak for that.
This isn't what you were trying to say but it is what I was trying to say in general to the thread.
TL;DR I agree with what many other people have said in this thread are: you are playing an individual, not a concept, or a race specifically, or a rank, or a class, or a back story but a person. In the end, I don't really feel like this should matter.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Martiallais - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:51 PM)Faye Wrote:(04-15-2015, 06:33 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Unfortunately, IRL does play into this, especially if you pay attention to OP's examples that allude to real life. This is the same kind of logic that would say you can't cosplay as a black Link or be a black samurai. This is the same kind of logic that supposes that medieval fantasy universes should have sexism in their worlds because it "makes more sense." OP may not be able to realize it, but when you are saying that certain races should be certain things because it would be too "extraordinary" it does imply something.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison at all. These aren't real people we're stopping from doing real things. This is a fake game where we choose our fake race and do fake things, especially when it comes to role-play. Why should a fantasy setting not have real world problems? If handled the right way, it can actually bring light to social issues rather than shoving them under the rug and pretending they don't exist.
Yes, it does imply something. It implies that there is racism in game. In game. In character. As is more or less a motto for RPers taking heed not to blur the lines, "IC problems are IC and should be dealt with IC."
It's the comparison made by the OP actually. Which is why the comparison fits in this conversation.
"But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander."
As I said earlier in the thread when this came up, people draw from real life. How many times has it been said "x fantasy race/place/etc is comparable to y real life example"?
Plenty.
Yes we can talk about the social implications of it all and how as roleplayers, aka people who like to use their IMAGINATION during PRETEND FUN TIMES regardless of the medium, should be open and at least willing to engage or attempt to be accepting to others. Instead, I'm pretty sure I've seen the phrase (or a variant thereof) along the lines of "I'll ignore them" or "I won't roleplay with them" in this thread more times than one can shake a proverbial stick at. Which I'm pretty sure amounts to exactly sweeping it under the rug.
Sure no one's stopping those people from cosplaying a black Link (no not Dark Link, just Link) or anything else. But a lot of them basically get the "I'll ignore them" equivalent as well because they aren't "doing it right" by the nature of being different/outside the norm. Which...is pretty much what this thread has turned into on more than one occasion.
It all ties together because (as I mentioned earlier) people draw from real life. It takes some conscious effort not to. I mean look at the comparisons here. More than one person has said that roleplay can bring along with it all the same -isms and fears and prejudices found in real life. It's most definitely a meta thing that each person has to deal with themselves.
I don't want this to turn into any sort of ethnic relations talk but I did want to at least attempt to explain it again. Apologies for the derail, of sorts.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Kasumi Gakunin - 04-15-2015
I'm probably repeating the same point that's been posted by someone else here but since there is so little lore provided about Doma, Ilsabard ect I'm happy to any accept any reasonable variation/extension a character will come up with. Let's just face it, we role play to enjoy ourselves, not cater to other people's approval. If someone's a good role player and has an interesting character generally I'll role play with them. I really have no issue with people playing miqo'te or lalafell from Doma cause at this point we just don't know what races are there. Should someone wait however long for SE to finally provide more lore about races in  Doma, Ilsabard before getting the approval of lore elitists to make their toon? Cause damn, that sounds boring and quite lengthy.Â
I've personally made reasonable extension on lore with Lacey before and then SE backed me up completely with new lore about ninja's released in the next patch. Almost to the level that I swear they're monitoring my role play and making notes. >.>
*whispers* They're watching.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-15-2015
I don't think the OP's real life comparisons meant--let's take the samurai one for example--that only Japanese people can be samurai and no other races are allowed, or that Japanese people make for better samurai, etc. Rather, when people first come up with their character, they start with the idea of an archetype. Well, I guess I can't speak for others--that's how it usually works for me, at least. So when the idea "samurai!" pops into someone's head for a character, it seems a little... counter-intuitive, I guess is the best way to put it, to then make said samurai character a white guy, at least if it's for no reason more than "I prefer to play a white guy." In fact, I'd argue that where real life races are concerned, that can be seem just as (if not more) racist--to change the respective race of a member of some discipline that belongs to another culture, especially when whitewashing or changing from a minority to a majority--than to say "all samurai should be Japanese."